Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
anthonyfa18
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Where did u find this ??

Rushu wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 4:25 am
anthonyfa18 wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 12:05 pm
I would really want to watch The documentary from NHK can some please Give me a link or anything I’m even willing to pay to watch it I am in Canada we get nothing good over here😭
This one is the latest. (It refers to the 2021 season)
https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1aL4y1474g/

You can find from previous years also in bilibili.
Thanks will check it out

Alexf1
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Any news on the introduction of the ERS update and what will be/has been updated? If they want to take their time with software optimalisation and postpone further all they have to do in US practice is let 1 RBPT car do an outlap, come back in and change back to the current ERS of which all drivers have plenty in their pool. You could even drive that single outlap in ERS off mode I think. As soon as you leave the pitlane with it on your car it's registered.

AR3-GP
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Both drivers were struggling with PU drivability issues today. I've seen a comment on another forum which suggested that the high humidity/rain may have played a role in the engine failures for Alpine. Is it possible too much water was getting into the combustion?

PErez said the following in the post-race press conference in Singapore:
There were a few occasions where the engine was doing something we were not expecting. So yeah, a few things to understand from there.

Jaisonas
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The powerband might have been too peaky for slippery conditions.

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johnny comelately
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Regarding the Perez and others engine problem in Singapore.
It is quite possible it was a humidity related problem.
If so the reasoning would be this way: Assuming there is a humidity sensor which naturally feeds into the ECU along with MAF and temperature , all the usual suspects, the problem could be the absolute humidity, measured in grams of water per cubic metre regardless of temperature.
This then is the impacting factor on combustion.
In analogue, old school terms, this simply would cause a richening and the solution is a leaning off.
But in these TJI engines running astounding lambdas the effect is more pronounced and that is the slowing of the combustion speed.
And this is only considering the event in isolation , when that is translated into motoring and in particular transition the effect is magnified.
The slowing centres around the interference of the water molecules with the free oxygen available for the new normal combustion phasing which is more akin to SACI and more like diesels MO.
So if the AH went up around 25 or 30 this may have been outside the ECU's ability to compensate (look-up tables or calculate).
The solution then would be to overide to increase ignition timing and or boost.
IMHO.

gruntguru
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I think that is unlikely. I am sure the engines would have been mapped with the entire temperature range likely at all tracks and for relative humidity ranging from 0 - 100%.
je suis charlie

johnny comelately
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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 3:11 am
I think that is unlikely. I am sure the engines would have been mapped with the entire temperature range likely at all tracks and for relative humidity ranging from 0 - 100%.
AH is the crucial factor not RH. An AH of 25+ grams per cubic metre would have that effect on drivability with these lambdas.
If this is not the cause, any other ideas?

gruntguru
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RH defines the limits of humidity. Greater than 100% and less than 0% are not possible so mapping the entire region between covers all possibilities. At 40*C (I am not sure what the temp was on the weekend), 25g/cu m (never heard SH expressed volumetrically before) is only about 65% RH so would certainly be anticipated as possible in coastal, tropical conditions.

Ingesting liquid water droplets is another matter - within limits this is usually beneficial.
je suis charlie

johnny comelately
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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:33 am
RH defines the limits of humidity. Greater than 100% and less than 0% are not possible so mapping the entire region between covers all possibilities. At 40*C (I am not sure what the temp was on the weekend), 25g/cu m (never heard SH expressed volumetrically before) is only about 65% RH so would certainly be anticipated as possible in coastal, tropical conditions.

Ingesting liquid water droplets is another matter - within limits this is usually beneficial.
From my limited info supersaturated is far higher meaning that AH can be higher than 100% RH, you might be able to see that on the Mollier curve. The 25 grams was an arbitrary figure for the discussion , it could be in reality much more.
Without getting into a merry go round I stick with my opinion until another feasible scenario comes along. Any thoughts on the pressure effect on that property would be welcome.
As I said before the effect of AH on these lambdas could be detrimental, it is area that those on the outside dont know about so I am just hypothesising.
I say that because propagation in a high lambda under what is probably SACI would be reasonably susceptible to interference.
The fact they have achieved such low combustion variability under high lambda conditions is a credit to them.
Horner said it was humidity and I took it as inferring the ICE.
Water droplets dont come into it because of the filtration and compressor effect.
I know you are alluding to the water/ methanol effect in aircraft engines but this is very different.

gruntguru
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100% RH is the upper limit for AH (AH = SH = Specific Humidity, usually expressed in (g of water)/(kg of dry air)) If the air contains more water than this, the extra is no longer water vapor but liquid - perhaps in microscopic droplets - a mist.

This liquid water (mist) has very different properties to water vapor. Engines love it because when heated it will absorb a massive amount of energy during vaporisation - reducing the temperature of the working fluid (the charge air or combustion gases).

As I said above, 25g/cu m is not super saturated at 40*C - only about 60% or so RH.
je suis charlie

johnny comelately
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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:32 am
100% RH is the upper limit for AH (AH = SH = Specific Humidity, usually expressed in (g of water)/(kg of dry air)) If the air contains more water than this, the extra is no longer water vapor but liquid - perhaps in microscopic droplets - a mist.

This liquid water (mist) has very different properties to water vapor. Engines love it because when heated it will absorb a massive amount of energy during vaporisation - reducing the temperature of the working fluid (the charge air or combustion gases).

As I said above, 25g/cu m is not super saturated at 40*C - only about 60% or so RH.
AH can go well above the Rh of 100% = supersaturated.
As I said the 25 grams was arbitrary, if the discussion was centred around superaturated you would lose the hill :wink:
The energy involved to break that quantity of H2O molecules would cause inconsistent propagation at those lambdas.
That is why it stopped detonation in the aircraft scenario.
Not getting on the merry go round GG :)

Tommy Cookers
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gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 8:33 am
RH defines the limits of humidity. Greater than 100% and less than 0% are not possible so mapping the entire region between covers all possibilities. At 40*C (I am not sure what the temp was on the weekend), 25g/cu m (never heard SH expressed volumetrically before) is only about 65% RH so would certainly be anticipated as possible in coastal, tropical conditions...
RH as such means nothing
water vapour replaces induction air (human or engine) in proportion to the absolute humidity/specific humidity
AH increasing greatly with temperature (for a given RH)

iirc an NA engine can lose maybe 8% power in Singapore (or eg Miami) - this seems to be unrecognised eg in aviation
dynamometry compensation formulae eg the SAE's don't work at such unusual atmospheric values
worse, some test cells even didn't breathe properly eg 1960s Maserati race engines had claimed power 'adjusted' for this
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Wed Oct 05, 2022 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

AR3-GP
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It's worth remembering that the pressure immediately in front of the compressor will drop well below ambient and the pressure behind the compressor will increase well above ambient.

Doesn't this complicate any notion of relative humidity? The low pressure in front of the compressor should support very a very high water vapor content then the pressurization of the turbo charger should cause a lot of condensation to be thrown into the engine. Some water is good, but too much water can throw off the compression ratio as water is not compressible. I wonder if this is why the Alpines blew up.

gruntguru
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johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:57 am
gruntguru wrote:
Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:32 am
100% RH is the upper limit for AH (AH = SH = Specific Humidity, usually expressed in (g of water)/(kg of dry air)) If the air contains more water than this, the extra is no longer water vapor but liquid - perhaps in microscopic droplets - a mist.

This liquid water (mist) has very different properties to water vapor. Engines love it because when heated it will absorb a massive amount of energy during vaporisation - reducing the temperature of the working fluid (the charge air or combustion gases).

As I said above, 25g/cu m is not super saturated at 40*C - only about 60% or so RH.
AH can go well above the Rh of 100% = supersaturated.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, RH cannot exceed 100% and SH cannot increase beyond this point either. Any increase in water content beyond 100% RH is liquid not vapour, and humidity is vapour content only. The humidity cannot increase beyond saturation - 100% RH.

Same as dissolving salt in water it will only dissolve so much - a "saturated" solution. Add more salt and the solution becomes "supersaturated". The salinity has not increased. You just have solid salt collecting at the bottom of the solution.
je suis charlie