Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[Tommy Cookers]

Well according to what has been discussed and speculated in the Mercedes power unit thread is that, they might be using a form of gasoline auto ignition. And given Boullier's comments about tuning with knock, I'm beginning to think that they are trying to run the engine on some quasi detonation state.

Can you please explain, what you mean with "quasi detonation state"?
To my understanding the main benefit of auto ignition is, that you do not have anything like pre-ignition. The fuel completely ignites once it is pushed into the combustion chamber. So there will not be any knocking problems on an engine with auto ignition.

3+ years ago I asked that question - ie is it possible to control directly the rate of heat addition by controlling the rate of injection ?
(ideally, regardless of whether combustion is spark-initiated or otherwise ?)

diesel fuel is rated for ignition delay (Cetane No) - the delay helps
but presumably gasoline also has some delay (eg in self-ignition),

some self-ignition after the spark in not unknown in high-power engine operation, it may help a race engine

[GoranF1]

I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

[dren]

So EB says they will get 30BHP from software update in Melbourne.... interesting...

http://www.f1today.net/en/news/f1/20951 ... s-boullier

Fixing their deployment, or lack of, and boosting power by another 30hp is a significant leap. That alone should be worth close to a second a lap, track dependent. Unless the 30hp gain is a qualifying mode type of set-up, like what Mercedes has been using. Then it'll only help close the gap during qualifying.

30HP is quite substantial, but it won't exactly give you a whole sec/per lap, lol.

I was referring to the power gain -and- the deployment issues being fixed. Button said not losing the deployment down the straights was about half a second gain in itself.

[PlatinumZealot]

I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

[GoranF1]

I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative....

[erlik]

I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative....

Are you in contact with Wazari?... and he is probably part of Honda rescue team Anyway I like when they promise less and deliver more than vice versa.

[hemichromis]

AMuS
"Der Honda V6-Turbo muss aber noch an Leistung zulegen. "Ein bisschen wird vor Melbourne noch von der Software herkommen", verspricht McLaren-Teamchef Eric Boullier. Honda will mittlerweile das Geheimnis des Mercedes-Motors kennen. Um das zu kopieren bräuchte man mindestens 7 Token."

Google translate:

"The Honda V6 turbo is yet to commit to performance." A little will come before Melbourne by the software, "promises McLaren team boss Eric Boullier. Honda will now know the secret of the Mercedes engine. To the need to copy it at least 7 tokens. "

Copying the mercedes engine with 7 tokens?
or would they need 7 more tokens to copy?
Are they trying to copy?

The secret is the combustion, Mercedes are using spark-free combustion.

This as described on this forum by (much) smarter people than I, is far more efficient.

[ME4ME]

I'am told 30Bhp from AUS software update is quite conservative number.

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative....

30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.

The secret is the combustion, Mercedes are using spark-free combustion.

This as described on this forum by (much) smarter people than I, is far more efficient.

This is pure speculation. Might be true, might not. It isn't limited to Mercedes either, Ferrari is rumored to strive to do the same.

[PhillipM]

30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.

Over what they would be using for testing (conservative settings) it's more than plausible.
It's not that they were running a 'worse' mapping for testing, just that they probably weren't pushing things to the edge. Lack of testing hurt them too much last year to do the same again.

[gruntguru]

Well according to what has been discussed and speculated in the Mercedes power unit thread is that, they might be using a form of gasoline auto ignition. And given Boullier's comments about tuning with knock, I'm beginning to think that they are trying to run the engine on some quasi detonation state.

Can you please explain, what you mean with "quasi detonation state"?
To my understanding the main benefit of auto ignition is, that you do not have anything like pre-ignition. The fuel completely ignites once it is pushed into the combustion chamber. So there will not be any knocking problems on an engine with auto ignition.

3+ years ago I asked that question - ie is it possible to control directly the rate of heat addition by controlling the rate of injection ?
(ideally, regardless of whether combustion is spark-initiated or otherwise ?)

diesel fuel is rated for ignition delay (Cetane No) - the delay helps
but presumably gasoline also has some delay (eg in self-ignition),

some self-ignition after the spark in not unknown in high-power engine operation, it may help a race engine

Interesting that Mercedes peak combustion pressure (~400 bar) is approaching the maximum permitted injection pressure (500 bar). With 100 bar differential it would still be possible to inject during combustion.

Ignition delay is detrimental to diesel performance. High cetane # = low ignition delay = low octane #, ie desirable fuel characteristics in a diesel are the opposite to those for SI engines. High octane gasoline would have a large ignition delay.

If hints coming from Mercedes and Ferrari are to be believed there is a lot of ignition happening after the spark ie compression ignition of a large portion of the charge initiating at multiple sites (equivalent to partial HCCI).

[basti313]

Well according to what has been discussed and speculated in the Mercedes power unit thread is that, they might be using a form of gasoline auto ignition. And given Boullier's comments about tuning with knock, I'm beginning to think that they are trying to run the engine on some quasi detonation state.

Can you please explain, what you mean with "quasi detonation state"?
To my understanding the main benefit of auto ignition is, that you do not have anything like pre-ignition. The fuel completely ignites once it is pushed into the combustion chamber. So there will not be any knocking problems on an engine with auto ignition.

3+ years ago I asked that question - ie is it possible to control directly the rate of heat addition by controlling the rate of injection ?
(ideally, regardless of whether combustion is spark-initiated or otherwise ?)

Of course, this is done on every commercial diesel engine. The question is, if you can make it useful on a high power petrol engine. As soon as you need the pre injection, you are loosing energy, because of the pressure rise before OT. In commercial cars this is mainly done to control noise and vibrations (lower pressure rise later) and to ignite the complete diesel "faster".
But I see not much reasons for this on a petrol racing engine.

[basti313]

Is quite a good bit of power for software+fuel. Great. This should be a good start. When tokens come into play Honda will be even better.

yes ,but there are people in Japan who think Eric's 30hp claim is a bit conservative....

30hp sounds way to high to me. I mean, what software did they use before, something that a drunken trainee had written? I can see there always being room for improvement, but the Honda guys aren't stupid. They would have gotten the programming at least decent in 2015. I'm sceptical, but lets see in Melbourne.

Well, 30hp or whatever from knocking...this is what Renault is trying to find for years now.

Over what they would be using for testing (conservative settings) it's more than plausible.
It's not that they were running a 'worse' mapping for testing, just that they probably weren't pushing things to the edge. Lack of testing hurt them too much last year to do the same again.

No. If you use different mappings for testing than for racing you do not learn anything. Everything on the ERS, the turbo or the deployment strategy is dependent on what your ICE can deliver.
And some people were claiming, that McLaren had the 3rd best chassis at the end of last season...if this is true, they need testing for the engine and nothing else on the car.

[PhillipM]

Not if you know you've got a reliable baseline to test all your deployement issues that were your main problem for the last 12 months you don't.

[gruntguru]

As soon as you need the pre injection, you are loosing energy, because of the pressure rise before OT.

The pre injection doesn't usually combust significantly before TDC. Ideally it starts to burn just as the main injection begins. This eliminates "ignition-delay" for the main injection - ignition-delay being the cause of diesel knock.

Of course there are other early injection strategies (mostly in research engines) aimed at "pre-mixing" a large proportion of the fuel so that combustion can proceed more rapidly (Otto style) near TDC.

[godlameroso]

It's definitely tricky, fuel as a liquid is easier to move, fuel as a vapor is easier to ignite, but then how do you coax the fuel into vaporizing, especially when you want to avoid wide spray patterns to avoid fuel film wall quenching. There's only so much you can do with 500 bar injection pressure, so there has to be some clever heating of fuel somewhere. Perhaps at the injector nozzle?