Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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It means you demand too many answers to your questions, and don't respect that people have a right to privacy, as well as there being topics that are sensitive and not something they're at liberty to discuss. Plus if they give you all the answers you'll never train that brain of yours to have any sort of imagination. Part of the fun is trying to figure things out.
Saishū kōnā

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:It means you demand too many answers to your questions, and don't respect that people have a right to privacy, as well as there being topics that are sensitive and not something they're at liberty to discuss. Plus if they give you all the answers you'll never train that brain of yours to have any sort of imagination. Part of the fun is trying to figure things out.
You are right, my brain is a lot smaller than yours, my techinical knowlage is very very basic and your level of aero and mechanical knowlage is amazing.
But i would like to suggest something....you chose a racing car that you want and a race track that you want i i give you 10 secs advandage and 10000€ if by the end of lap 1 you beat me?
How does this sound?
I send you my personal data in box now?
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

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godlameroso
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Joined: 16 Jan 2010, 21:27
Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
godlameroso wrote:It means you demand too many answers to your questions, and don't respect that people have a right to privacy, as well as there being topics that are sensitive and not something they're at liberty to discuss. Plus if they give you all the answers you'll never train that brain of yours to have any sort of imagination. Part of the fun is trying to figure things out.
You are right, my brain is a lot smaller than yours, my techinical knowlage is very very basic and your level of aero and mechanical knowlage is amazing.
But i would like to suggest something....you chose a racing car that you want and a race track that you want i i give you 10 secs advandage and 10000€ if by the end of lap 1 you beat me?
How does this sound?
I send you my personal data in box now?
Don't get all melancholy over constructive criticism, let's put it this way, I consider someone a genius when they can learn from their own mistakes. Just from this point of view it should be painfully obvious that there's not a lot of geniuses, there's people that can amass a large amount of information, but it means squat unless they can put that knowledge to work.
Saishū kōnā

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godlameroso
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Location: Miami FL

Re: Honda Power Unit

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It does, people discuss things, you didn't get all those status points for nothing. I guess you saw the rumors about how strong the Mercedes engine is and it's cast doubt over what Honda can do to match that. I'm anxious to see as well, but hey, 3rd time's the charm.
Saishū kōnā

GoranF1
GoranF1
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Joined: 16 Dec 2014, 12:53
Location: Zagreb,Croatia

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:It does, people discuss things, you didn't get all those status points for nothing. I guess you saw the rumors about how strong the Mercedes engine is and it's cast doubt over what Honda can do to match that. I'm anxious to see as well, but hey, 3rd time's the charm.
No i am not afraid of Merc....Alonso compensates for 47.8 bhp..... :D
"I have no idols. I admire work, dedication & competence."

aral
aral
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Joined: 03 Apr 2010, 22:49

Re: Honda Power Unit

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A number of off topic comments have been removed as they were confrontational. Please confine your comments to the basics of the power unit.
Thanks

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PlatinumZealot
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Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 03:45

Re: Honda Power Unit

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GoranF1 wrote:
dren wrote:Who cares? You seem overly demanding of these people. Just take what they give at face value, like anyone else on the internet.
I have no idea what you just said
Even if Wazari is a fake... It was fun discussions. Lol.

I take everything on the internet with a pinch of salt. for me this is all for fun.

This wazari versus muramasa gate is going to be a fun too.

Japenese versus japanese mean they can communicate to each other in their native tongue.

We should invite muramasa over to take part and we stipulate tgat BOTH he and wazari translate an english article in their own words.. And then a japanese artcle in thier own words!

8)
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌✍️🐎🏆🙏

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turbof1
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Can we get back to to discussing the actual Honda Power Unit please? Some posts were removed again.
#AeroFrodo

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Bringing the odd vs even fire debate back. Even is better for the turbine since the pulses are evenly spaced, equal intensity. Can odd fire which has exhaust pulses of different intensity be as effective, if you were able to maximize the amount and intensity of the strong pulses?

In other words can an engine with say 4 strong pulses and 2 weaker pulses make the same if not more power than 6 even pulses that are not as strong as the 4 but stronger than the 2?
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glenntws
glenntws
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Joined: 15 Feb 2017, 15:41
Location: Germany

Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:Bringing the odd vs even fire debate back. Even is better for the turbine since the pulses are evenly spaced, equal intensity. Can odd fire which has exhaust pulses of different intensity be as effective, if you were able to maximize the amount and intensity of the strong pulses?

In other words can an engine with say 4 strong pulses and 2 weaker pulses make the same if not more power than 6 even pulses that are not as strong as the 4 but stronger than the 2?
No, because you constantly are out of operating range. The puleses vary between zero and too much. Even is always better in terms of efficiency. Always!

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Joined: 16 Jun 2012, 18:42

Re: Honda Power Unit

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Brian Coat wrote:From time to time we talk about the unsteady flow challenges of the turbocharger on here..

I stumbled across this Phd thesis from Imperial (where they have a very nice unsteady turbo test facility). It's about modelling these effects, which I think is interesting.

https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream ... Thesis.pdf
Here's another good one. Again PhD-wordy (they always make them start with the book of Genesis and explain everything ...) but good stuff on blowdown etc.

https://dspace.lboro.ac.uk/dspace-jspui ... -Baker.pdf

Brian Coat
Brian Coat
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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glenntws wrote:
godlameroso wrote:Bringing the odd vs even fire debate back. Even is better for the turbine since the pulses are evenly spaced, equal intensity. Can odd fire which has exhaust pulses of different intensity be as effective, if you were able to maximize the amount and intensity of the strong pulses?

In other words can an engine with say 4 strong pulses and 2 weaker pulses make the same if not more power than 6 even pulses that are not as strong as the 4 but stronger than the 2?
No, because you constantly are out of operating range. The puleses vary between zero and too much. Even is always better in terms of efficiency. Always!
Glenn, do you mean turbine efficiency?

I am not saying the huge pulses are best (I have no data) but isn't the goal to maximise "MGU-H_Power" minus "ICE_exhaust_pumping_power" , not just turbine efficiency?

glenntws
glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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Brian Coat wrote:
glenntws wrote:
godlameroso wrote:Bringing the odd vs even fire debate back. Even is better for the turbine since the pulses are evenly spaced, equal intensity. Can odd fire which has exhaust pulses of different intensity be as effective, if you were able to maximize the amount and intensity of the strong pulses?

In other words can an engine with say 4 strong pulses and 2 weaker pulses make the same if not more power than 6 even pulses that are not as strong as the 4 but stronger than the 2?
No, because you constantly are out of operating range. The puleses vary between zero and too much. Even is always better in terms of efficiency. Always!
Glenn, do you mean turbine efficiency?

I am not saying the huge pulses are best (I have no data) but isn't the goal to maximise "MGU-H_Power" minus "ICE_exhaust_pumping_power" , not just turbine efficiency?
Yes I mean turbine efficiency. The Problem (which may not be obvious) is that the turbine efficiency is directly linked to MGU-H power. While I get your point, that the pumping losses could be reduced by odd firing or something like that, I can tell you that the power you lose with an ineffective turbine is higher than the eventually slightly bigger exhaust pressure.

When having a strongly odd firing engine, you get one big wave into the turbine, which in turn means pretty high back pressure if the single pipe length isn't too short. And I'm pretty sure that the exhaust pipes can't be long enough (even at high rpm's) to stop these backpressure waves.

The backpressure that you have with a even-length and even firing engine is just ok and with good manifold design you can realize some good flow under high rpms.

So, yes. I do think even when you see the PU in a whole package, even-firing is more efficient than odd-firing. Both on ICE and TC/MGU-H side.

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godlameroso
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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So who's using even fire in their engine?
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glenntws
glenntws
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Re: Honda Power Unit

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godlameroso wrote:So who's using even fire in their engine?
No one. It's impossible just because of the rules. 3 crankthrows are allowed but with 90° bank angle you have uneven space between the firings. For even, you would need 30° journal offset.

So, if the manufacturers are using normal orders like 1-4-3-6-2-5, they have 90°-150°-90°-150°-90°-150° spacings between firings. But the intervals on the banks themselves would be even, which makes up for equal length manifold design and the offset between the banks can be fixed with a little offset on the turbine housing, so the 2 exhaust ports are not going to the turbine with 180° offset but with a little bit more for example.

If however the manufacturers use something like Wazari gave us a hint at like 1-2-3-4-5-6 you get a 120°-120°-210°-120°-120°-30° interval. By that you have a little big bang effect and this timing harmonates (like discussed before) perfectly with the engine sound from the teaser when every second ignition is taken away (cylinder shutoff).
This way you get odd-firing for each bank. You have even firing for 360° and a "dead rotation" before next ignition happens on that bank.
This ignition order is pretty weird but it's actually possible. Although I think Honda would maybe use 1-3-2-4-6-5 which is better in terms of crankshaft loading and vibrations but has the same gas circulation effects as 1-2-3-4-5-6