Honda Power Unit Hardware & Software

[glenntws]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.ph ... er-failure

Nothing new and nothing to worry about. They did a film day today and no failures were reported by anybody. It's just the same story over and over again but with different headlines.

Taking apart a engine doesn't take a slong as every article says, they already know what the problem is and from my perspective it seems like a "one of the first engines, onetime failure" problem. The engines ran thousands of kilometers on the dyno. Also, there were NO signs of a mechanical failure during the test, so turbocharger and ICE should still be alive. Maybe it's just a way to hide what the have, who knows.

Besides that: Goddamn, the new engine sounds raspy as hell and I love that soo much. Obviously they seem to use less cylinder shutdown (at least in test PU-strategy) but that makes the "switch to cylinder-shutoff sound" even sweeter.

That Twitter post when Vandoorne halted for a pit stop though (listen at 0:06 for that Switch *.*)
https://twitter.com/McLarenF1/status/837331257914757120

[godlameroso]

It's strange, when an air fuel mixture is ignited, the reaction actually loses some mass, which is converted to energy. So this reduced mass is creating energy by increasing its volume. Kind of counter productive don't you think? Makes having a turbo all the more sense when you think of it like that. What better way to compensate for the lost mass than by adding more mass?

Each combustion event releases about 2500J and total combustion mass is about 0.00012 kg.

E=mC^2 so mass lost m = E/C^2 = 1200J/(3E8)^2 = 1.3E-14 kg.
As a fraction of total mass in the combustion chamber this is 1.1E-14/0.00012 = 9.1E-11 or 0.0000000091%

The boost required to make up for the lost mass could be provided by a butterfly flapping its wings. Probably not legal though.

[GoranF1]

From Rollenda NSX aka Sasha


Re: 2017 Honda F1 PU (Score: 1, Normal) 03-01-2017 17:01
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Honda's 2017 PU is almost like 2016 MB PU in design.

The Oil Tank is like the MB one.(in the front of engine around compressor intake).Very hard to get right.(and a shaker-rig dyno wouldn't of found the problem during heavy braking and turning left G's)

So for the moment they are using a band-aid fix while they redesign it.

Honda is just behind everybody else with Pre-Chamber CC.What they are dealing with now is that the ICE is so effiecent that it is now hurting ER(less heat in the exhaust)

So expect a new Turbine by April/May and that explains why MB went with Vortex Exhaust(keeps flow from touching pipe sides)this year.(better effiecent ICE means less heat in exhaust,so design a exhaust pipe that keeps most of the heat from escaping to get to the turbine=more ER)

[luke352]

well, my guess is that .......
combustion gets slower with leaner mixtures (and combustion slowing and combustion becoming less efficient go hand-in-hand)
?

Nope Lean burn combustion is faster. Which is part of the reason there is less heat in the exhaust path compared to a more traditional burn. It is well known that proper lean burn cycles produce lower exhaust temps. My guess the faster combustion means the charge has had more time to cool prior to the exhaust stroke beginning.

[PhillipM]

I don't see what the proposed 'vortex' exhaust that someone simulated gives over ceramic insulation for the same size to be honest. Bar more flow loses.

[PhillipM]

It is well known that proper lean burn cycles produce lower exhaust temps. My guess the faster combustion means the charge has had more time to cool prior to the exhaust stroke beginning.

Or, you know, a shedload more air to absorb the heat.

[luke352]

It is well known that proper lean burn cycles produce lower exhaust temps. My guess the faster combustion means the charge has had more time to cool prior to the exhaust stroke beginning.

Or, you know, a shedload more air to absorb the heat.

That too.

[glenntws]

I don't see what the proposed 'vortex' exhaust that someone simulated gives over ceramic insulation for the same size to be honest. Bar more flow loses.

A combination of both techniques gives the best amount of insulation the preserve the biggest possible amount of heat in the exhaust gases.

[trinidefender]

Ceramic insulation is relatively heavy for what it is.

More importantly and the real main reason that MB may be using this exhaust system I suspect is to reduce the temperature of the exhaust pipes themselves. The lower those temps the closer together the manifold can be run and the tighter the bodywork and parts can be to it. Remember originally Honda started with a log style manifold, they made that choice on packaging grounds knowing that they would lose power.

That is of course is this technology is actually implemented.

[GhostF1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-ue72vx82A

This is a great video. You can hear how each manufacturers power units sound perfectly. The Merc powered cars (first shown in the Force India) sound so different. Their launch hold programs sound pretty complex as well, much more going on than say Honda.
The Renault and the Merc engines sound very similar although Renault seems a bit quieter. I'm just hoping Honda went as radical as they said they did with this engine... It doesn't even sound like they have so far. Maybe next week will shed a bit of light.

Just a nice little video exposing more about the power unit behaviours, this time in race start scenario. Definitely worth a look at.

[HPD]

Interesting https://twitter.com/gzoneStudios/status ... 4552837122

[PhillipM]

Ceramic insulation is relatively heavy for what it is.

More importantly and the real main reason that MB may be using this exhaust system I suspect is to reduce the temperature of the exhaust pipes themselves. The lower those temps the closer together the manifold can be run and the tighter the bodywork and parts can be to it. Remember originally Honda started with a log style manifold, they made that choice on packaging grounds knowing that they would lose power.

That is of course is this technology is actually implemented.

Using twice as much inconel as a normal pipe is pretty heavy too. Heavier than the ceramic insulation by a long way.

[maguetox]

It's today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-73NA0 ... e=youtu.be

An underpowered PU don't do that kind of wheel spin.

[makecry]

It's today
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-73NA0 ... e=youtu.be

An underpowered PU don't do that kind of wheel spin.

Thats not true at all! Those engines produce >900 bhp with insane amount of torque. More than enough for any kind of wheel spin.

[Mr Sparkle]

It's strange, when an air fuel mixture is ignited, the reaction actually loses some mass, which is converted to energy. So this reduced mass is creating energy by increasing its volume. Kind of counter productive don't you think? Makes having a turbo all the more sense when you think of it like that. What better way to compensate for the lost mass than by adding more mass?

Each combustion event releases about 2500J and total combustion mass is about 0.00012 kg.

E=mC^2 so mass lost m = E/C^2 = 1200J/(3E8)^2 = 1.3E-14 kg.
As a fraction of total mass in the combustion chamber this is 1.1E-14/0.00012 = 9.1E-11 or 0.0000000091%

The boost required to make up for the lost mass could be provided by a butterfly flapping its wings. Probably not legal though.

This helps to explain the purpose of the butterfly valve.