Return Of The Mighty V-10?

[ScottB]

'Eco-nazis' sums up the intelligence level of argument put forward.

Sorry, but getting 800-900bhp out of a 1.6 V6 Turbo hybrid is much, much more interesting to me than a big V10. F1 should be the pinnacle of technology, not just racing, people daydreaming of a return to outdated tech can keep on dreaming. Even top line supercars are going the hybrid route, with smaller turbos and that is a trend that will continue.

Switch to V10s or something equally as daft then the manufacturers will go, you'll be lucky to keep Ferrari and pay a Cosworth or something to make everybody else's spec engine. The manufacturers want the sport to reflect the changes they are making in the real world. Understandable that they want something for all that investment!

[xpensive]

...
A 1000bhp engine would be relative straightforward to get out of the current engine formula. You just need to up the fuel flow and perhaps the ers too.

I doubt it, surely today's engines are so optimized to a low boost like1 bar something, they couldn't handle much more.

But yes, increase the 27.8 g/sec with 50 % and you'll easily have 1000 Hp from the ICE alone, then you can ditch the ERS-nonsense.

[turbof1]

...
A 1000bhp engine would be relative straightforward to get out of the current engine formula. You just need to up the fuel flow and perhaps the ers too.

I doubt it, surely today's engines are so optimized to a low boost like1 bar something, they couldn't handle much more.

But yes, increase the 27.8 g/sec with 50 % and you'll easily have 1000 Hp from the ICE alone, then you can ditch the ERS-nonsense.

The 'ers nonsence' is actually much more fascinating then internal combustion engine technology originally dating back to 1859. Not that I care too much about F1 having a facelift, but energy recuperation from brakes and heat is a good concept. I don't care about it having a shine, and only a shine, of being green, but I do care about the efficiency. The concept of getting more out of the same is something I can fully stand behind.

Besides, nobody is really complaining about the ERS. Slap it on a V10, would you still hold any grudge against it? And in the past BMW managed to get out of V4 turbo a whopping 1100bhp. How about that?

[xpensive]

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And in the past BMW managed to get out of V4 turbo a whopping 1100bhp. How about that?

Which is my very point, there's no need for the ERS-nonsense in F1, perhaps in WEC and possibly it will make some suckers
buy a Prius or something. But with falling oil and gasoline prices, who really cares, at least not in the US I can tell you that?

Besides, the BMW turbo was an I4 and produced 1400 Hp in qualifying, but that was with a used and proven cast-iron block,
a far cry from the multi-races-per-engine-something rules of today, with everything optimized and predicted accordingly.

[turbof1]

...
And in the past BMW managed to get out of V4 turbo a whopping 1100bhp. How about that?

Which is my very point, there's no need for the ERS-nonsense in F1, perhaps in WEC and possibly it will make some suckers
buy a Prius or something. But with falling oil and gasoline prices, who really cares, at least not in the US I can tell you that?

Besides, the BMW turbo was an I4 and produced 1400 Hp in qualifying, but that was with a used and proven cast-iron block,
a far cry from today's multi-races-per-engine-something rules of today, with everything optimized and predicted accordingly.

The BMW M12 ICE is 30 year old technology. By now they are surely able to create an engine with those same rules with a much higher reliability and much higher mileage, for the same bhp.

Sure there is need for ers. Humanity only fares well with more efficiency. Maybe you like the fact a V10 burns away fuel at the same rate as 2 hummers, but I think that's quite insane and infact nonsense since there are enough options to create the same level of performance with less consumption. recuperating energy from brakes instead of it just letting it go to waste is a good and solid concept.

Btw, didn't you disliked the fact that F1 cars have wings? Well a Prius competition is perfectly suited for you: they don't have any . Have fun with it.

[xpensive]

You're moving the goalposts turboman, issue was if today's engines could be boosted to 1000 Hp, which they can't under these rules.

[turbof1]

You're moving the goalposts turboman, issue was if today's engines could be boosted to 1000 Hp, which they can't under these rules.

Oh but I never claimed the current rules are correct, did I? I feel the fuel flow limit is quite a disgrace. If you take the same rules as today and just remove the fuel flow limit, you'll get engines well beyond 1000bhp. They'll still be bound to the 100kg, so over a race they still need to be efficient. So mister Xhaustive, my only point was that the ERS are a good concept and never really are the problem here. It's the fuel flow that is hampering sounds, is hampering power and is the real nonsense since you still need to consider the 100kg fuel rule.

[Blackout]

'Eco-nazis' sums up the intelligence level of argument put forward.

Sorry, but getting 800-900bhp out of a 1.6 V6 Turbo hybrid is much, much more interesting to me than a big V10. F1 should be the pinnacle of technology, not just racing, people daydreaming of a return to outdated tech can keep on dreaming. Even top line supercars are going the hybrid route, with smaller turbos and that is a trend that will continue.

Switch to V10s or something equally as daft then the manufacturers will go, you'll be lucky to keep Ferrari and pay a Cosworth or something to make everybody else's spec engine. The manufacturers want the sport to reflect the changes they are making in the real world. Understandable that they want something for all that investment!

"F1 should be the pinnacle of technology"

Yes but Endurance has MGUs and turbos too... and F1 doesnt even have super-capacitors like WECs... F1 is not the pinnacle anymore.

"people daydreaming of a return to outdated tech can keep on dreaming"

The current F1 ICE is already an outdated engine.

"Switch to V10s or something equally as daft then the manufacturers will go, you'll be lucky to keep Ferrari and pay a Cosworth or something to make everybody else's spec engine. The manufacturers want the sport to reflect the changes they are making in the real world. Understandable that they want something for all that investment!"

Cosworth, Honda, Toyota, BMW etc already have an F1 V8... the 2007-2013 engines only need an update.
Ferrari, Merc, BMW still build V8 engines for their road cars AFAIK...

"Even top line supercars are going the hybrid route''
F1 is right to go the hybrid route IMO... but F1 is not supercars or road cars.. it's a totaly different world.

"The manufacturers want the sport to reflect the changes they are making in the real world"
The F1 sport can do that and remain as extreme as before. You can incorporate those new technologies in the extreme high revving and screaming F1 engines that we used to have in modern F1.

[CHT]

I view f1 more of a show between man and machine not machine and man. I certainly love to hear the sound of v10 again.
At it is now it's really not worth paying to watch a race.

As bb king will say ... the thrill is gone.

[ParkerArt]

...perhaps in WEC and possibly it will make some suckers
buy a Prius or something. But with falling oil and gasoline prices, who really cares, at least not in the US I can tell you that?

I hope you know why oil prices are falling and that it isn't going to last, if not increase steeper so Saudi Arabia, Venezuela and the UAE can make up for lost profits.

[ringo]

I agree with Bernie. Formula 1 is a show first and foremost.
Outside of these fan forums, out into TV land, the power units are basically phantoms. No one remembers what they are, how they work and what they are achieving. The is no part of the show that emphasizes the technology, so the technology is not important to the show.
Now when you have things that you can see, hear and feel, then those things can enhance the show. A V10 is in fact a wonderful idea. And i don't see why an engine layout is considered old technology. Last time i checked, an electric motor, a turbo charger and batteries aren't cutting edge and have been around for ages.
Bring on the 1000hp V10s. throw in direct injection, KERS hybrid, and formula 1 has a future.

[Facts Only]

The current engines are running 3 to 5 Bar of boost not 1 Bar as claimed. Also I don't see how recovering waste energy from the exhaust and using it to create more power is nonsense.

If Merc make the rumoured 70bhp gain for next year then they will already be way past the V8 power levels and not far off the V8 power levels from the V6 alone.

From what I've seen first hand there is way more power to come and I think if the rules remain as written we will close to 1000bhp by the end of this engine rules cycle.

[turbof1]

The current engines are running 3 to 5 Bar of boost not 1 Bar as claimed. Also I don't see how recovering waste energy from the exhaust and using it to create more power is nonsense.

If Merc make the rumoured 70bhp gain for next year then they will already be way past the V8 power levels and not far off the V8 power levels from the V6 alone.

From what I've seen first hand there is way more power to come and I think if the rules remain as written we will close to 1000bhp by the end of this engine rules cycle.

Relative close to 1000bhp. I think 900bhp is the limit since the engine development will become progressively more frozen. Unless of course that changes in the future. But yeah still quite a feat and definitely better then the V8. A further note is that if the rumors are true about the 70bhp, we have to understand that the 70bhp will come without an increase in fuel consumption. That's a big achievement.

[xpensive]

760 Hp from 27.8 cc/sec would mean a 40+% efficiency, which I seriously doubt, unless Petronas has come up with some rocket fuel?

[Moxie]

I just can't take anything Mr.E. says seriously. Over the last couple of years, so many of his ideas have been damned foolish, and this is just another example. If noise and horsepower were realy his goal, he'd offer up a much simpler suggestion, i.e. 305 ci. or 410 ci. NA v8's ...al la American dirt track racing. They are cheap,compared to modern F1 engines, they certainly provide the, required horsepower, and they produce a rumble that will vibrate your insides. It is a design that is tried and true, and it is still road relevant. This is F1, so of course the manufacturers will work their magic to get the most out of the formula. Engines do not have to be "cutting edge" to be awesome.