Merc lack of dominance

Post here all non technical related topics about Formula One. This includes race results, discussions, testing analysis etc. TV coverage and other personal questions should be in Off topic chat.
basti313
basti313
25
Joined: 22 Feb 2014, 14:49

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

SectorOne wrote:Strategy destroyed any chance of a win.
They completed just three laps on the Medium compound before heading into the pits to switch for Hard tires.
The strategist should get some type of award for that.
Did you think through the situation with not pitting during the safety car? Old Mediums, having to change in lap 12, down to P14, not having to fight some FI Lotus or Torros on 14laps old tires, but Williams or Bulls on 7laps old Mediums...this would have ruined their race completely.
Don`t russel the hamster!

User avatar
Artur Craft
40
Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 15:50

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

lebesset wrote:face facts ....mercedes could have recoevered from their mistakes if they had a set of options to put on for the last stint , hamilton would have caught vettel easily , if I was him i would be spitting with rage at the team's performance
personally I am delighted , we need ferrari back in the hunt
Well, not much facts in there

"Catching easily" on the option tire is a big if. They didn't opt for Hamilton to use Mediums, on last stint, because he would do more laps than Rosberg did.

Hamilton was 10s behind Vettel by lap 10, when he had cleared the slower cars on old tyres and got to 2nd. Afterwards, Vettel had to progress on older Mediums and took 2 pit stops using Medium and Hard. Hamilton also did 2 pit stop afterwards and also used Medium and Hard.

In the end, Lewis finished the same 10s behind(penultimate lap as Vettel cruised on finish line). So no significant pace advantage by Mercedes. Albeit Lewis was on Hards after the SC, it was fresher than Vettel's Mediums, so that kind of evens things a bit.

In summary, there is no factual evidence suggesting Mercedes was faster than Ferrari. All in all, they were pretty matched. That is, Vettel's race pace was pretty even with Hamilton's after lap 10.

Rosberg was faster than both, though, the problem for him was that Ricciardo and Massa were between him and Hamilton and not only they have faster cars but were using fresh rubber too.

And I'm not guessing here. Rosberg cleared the field, to reach 3rd, by lap 14, and was 9s behind Hamilton and 18s behind Vettel, then. Rosberg used the same combination of the other two, after the second pit stop, but in reverse(Hards, then Mediums). Nico finished 4s behind Hamilton and 12 behind Vettel, so a better pace once on clean air.

PS: When he and Hamilton had the same compound on the same stint, from lap 14 to 24, and both were on clean air, Rosberg reduced his gap from 9s to 7,2s, despite using more his tires to pass faster cars like Massa and Ricciardo

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

basti313 wrote:Did you think through the situation with not pitting during the safety car? Old Mediums, having to change in lap 12, down to P14, not having to fight some FI Lotus or Torros on 14laps old tires, but Williams or Bulls on 7laps old Mediums...this would have ruined their race completely.
lap 12? Why?
Hamilton did a medium stint that was 15 laps. Being in free air in the beginning he could have possibly done 14+
And he did that amount without any safety car laps in the stint it should be said.
If he boxed on lap 15 let´s say he would have dodged the whole Hulkenberg train.

4 laps - Medium
20 laps - Hard
15 laps - Medium
17 laps - Hard

The 4 lap stint on Mediums ensured they had to go extra long on all other stints. Which was the last thing they needed, having tire problems and all.
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

Moose
Moose
52
Joined: 03 Oct 2014, 19:41

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

Yep, the 4 lap stint screwed them royally. If they'd done 15 there, things would probably have looked more like this:
15 laps - Medium
15 laps - Hard
15 laps - Medium
11 laps - Medium

That way the fat that the last set of mediums were used wouldn't have mattered, because they wouldn't have had to go as far. Hamilton was losing a second a lap (to himself) by being on the hards instead of the mediums, so (roughly) this strategy would have saved 22 seconds compared to the one they ran, and that's ignoring the fact that if they'd done this they wouldn't have been stuck in traffic.

Basically, as much as it looks like Ferrari are back, Merc threw this one away.

Sevach
Sevach
1054
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

SectorOne wrote:
basti313 wrote:Did you think through the situation with not pitting during the safety car? Old Mediums, having to change in lap 12, down to P14, not having to fight some FI Lotus or Torros on 14laps old tires, but Williams or Bulls on 7laps old Mediums...this would have ruined their race completely.
lap 12? Why?
Hamilton did a medium stint that was 15 laps. Being in free air in the beginning he could have possibly done 14+
And he did that amount without any safety car laps in the stint it should be said.
If he boxed on lap 15 let´s say he would have dodged the whole Hulkenberg train.

4 laps - Medium
20 laps - Hard
15 laps - Medium
17 laps - Hard

The 4 lap stint on Mediums ensured they had to go extra long on all other stints. Which was the last thing they needed, having tire problems and all.
Keep in mind that after 10 laps on stint 3 he started losing 1s per lap to Rosberg on hards (probably why they went hard to finish the race).

UglyTroll
UglyTroll
0
Joined: 26 Mar 2015, 13:39

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

Looking at their good second sectors I think merc may have had a compromising setup, probably expecting to have a big advantage in the dry so they decided to cover the possibility of rain.

User avatar
bdr529
59
Joined: 08 Apr 2011, 19:49
Location: Canada

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

Moose wrote: Basically, as much as it looks like Ferrari are back, Merc threw this one away.
I'd go with a bit of both on this loss/win, they certainly didn't make things easy for themselves.
I don't know what a lack of dominance is, But if I had to guess I'd say it was Red Bull's performance last year,
So I don't think 1 loss in this case is a real crack in the armor, if you're already of the believe that Mercedes is going to be dominant again this year

User avatar
SectorOne
166
Joined: 26 May 2013, 09:51

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

Sevach wrote:Keep in mind that after 10 laps on stint 3 he started losing 1s per lap to Rosberg on hards (probably why they went hard to finish the race).
Well made point, i think we can speculate how long the Mercedes could have run the Medium in the beginning but i think we can know for sure that only doing 4 laps on them was far from optimizing that tire which then ultimately compromised all other stints after.

Here´s a nice overview of the stints everyone made. Ferrari pretty much nailed Pirelli´s optimal tire strategy.
They really did drive a fine race today the Ferrari boys. Excellent strat, excellent pit stops, excellent drive by Vettel staying calm at the front.

Image
"If the only thing keeping a person decent is the expectation of divine reward, then brother that person is a piece of sh*t"

notsofast
notsofast
2
Joined: 10 Oct 2012, 02:56

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

SectorOne wrote:Strategy by both teams.

http://i.imgur.com/DZxwzh5.jpg
Hmmm, so, in the middle stint, ROS on the hards kept pace with HAM on the mediums and went faster than VET on the mediums. And then in the last stint, ROS on the mediums went faster than HAM and VET who were both on hards.

Also, VET seems to have lost much less time in the pitstops than HAM and ROS, if I'm interpreting the chart correctly.

Anyway, it seems to me that the Mercs are faster, but botched it on strategy.

And VET is consistently faster than RAI. It's not that RAI caught up with the leaders, but rather that the other cars kept falling farther behind.

User avatar
Juzh
161
Joined: 06 Oct 2012, 08:45

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

notsofast wrote: And VET is consistently faster than RAI. It's not that RAI caught up with the leaders, but rather that the other cars kept falling farther behind.
Rai did have floor damage, so we don't know how much that affected him and his pace.

RobertPthe3rd
RobertPthe3rd
0
Joined: 10 Mar 2012, 17:07

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

I think it was a combination of factors today that allowed Vettle to steal the win. Ferrari have obviously made huge strides in the pace department however. Although i still think Merc has the outrightpace advantage. Strategy, Track temps, and Ferraris gentleness on the tires all contributed to the win.

The 4 lap stints on the mediums didnt help the mercs, they then needed to be more conservative on the later longer stints, If they had been able to stay out and get the mediums to lap 15, wether this was possible or not is a mystery. They should have started on the hards and gone hard, medium, medium or hard, hard, medium. The extra stop cost them atleast the winning margin, even though under the safety car beause Vettle was able to build a 10 second lead in a few laps as Merc were busy passing the slow cars in 2-5 after the safety car, This was no good for the win.

Ferrari also had amazing tire usage today. The car was looking phenomenal. Vettle ran a flawless race and they just beat the mercs today fair and square.

However with more normal temps on coming races i think their advantage will return. Also i think Merc was a little stupid thinking they could do any strategy they want and still have enough of a pace advatage to make up 10-20 seconds which they clearly could not.

At the least this is good for the sport. Im a huge Hamilton fan but no one wants to watch one team smoke everyone and dominate, its not fun. And Mercedes will have learned that they cant play games with strategy as they now have a competent rival. All in all it makes the season ahead look vastly better than it did in austrailia

Sevach
Sevach
1054
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

SectorOne wrote:
Sevach wrote:Keep in mind that after 10 laps on stint 3 he started losing 1s per lap to Rosberg on hards (probably why they went hard to finish the race).
Well made point, i think we can speculate how long the Mercedes could have run the Medium in the beginning but i think we can know for sure that only doing 4 laps on them was far from optimizing that tire which then ultimately compromised all other stints after.

Here´s a nice overview of the stints everyone made. Ferrari pretty much nailed Pirelli´s optimal tire strategy.
They really did drive a fine race today the Ferrari boys. Excellent strat, excellent pit stops, excellent drive by Vettel staying calm at the front.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CBQ-r0RWYAAbzOm.png:large
That short stint pretty much killed their chance of doing 2 stops, far from ideal, on that we can agree,

But sometimes it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't... after the safety car was called, Vettel had a car able to push those tires to 11 laps, how many laps would Hamilton get? One would have to assume less than those 11 laps, if we are talking 7 or less... i think pitting was the lesser evil call, though still compromised.

User avatar
TheRMVR
0
Joined: 22 Apr 2010, 16:20

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

Bigal38 wrote:Could Mercedes lack of dominance today be a result of the new fuel pressure regs ?
When do these new fuel pressure regulations actually kick in? And who would potentially stand to benefit from them? So far I've read it will be a small disadvantage for Mercedes and Ferrari..

User avatar
AnthonyG
38
Joined: 03 Mar 2012, 13:16

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

TheRMVR wrote:
Bigal38 wrote:Could Mercedes lack of dominance today be a result of the new fuel pressure regs ?
When do these new fuel pressure regulations actually kick in? And who would potentially stand to benefit from them? So far I've read it will be a small disadvantage for Mercedes and Ferrari..
China the soonest (?)
Thank you really doesn't really describe enough what I feel. - Vettel

giantfan10
giantfan10
27
Joined: 27 Nov 2014, 18:05
Location: USA

Re: Merc lack of dominance

Post

[/quote]That short stint pretty much killed their chance of doing 2 stops, far from ideal, on that we can agree,
But sometimes it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't... after the safety car was called, Vettel had a car able to push those tires to 11 laps, how many laps would Hamilton get? One would have to assume less than those 11 laps, if we are talking 7 or less... i think pitting was the lesser evil call, though still compromised.[/quote]

another point that i have not seen mentioned here. at the beginning of lap 3 right before the safety car came out Vettel was within DRS range of hamilton. kinder on the tires/ faster in a straight line and with drs... what do you guys think the outcome would have been without a safety car?

point # 2: the safety car helped mercedes more than it hurt them.... hamilton would have lost 20+ seconds( maybe less if he was ahead) to vettel if the first stop in his 3 stopper was made under normal conditions. im thinking vettel had a pretty good shot of winning this race regardless of the safety car.