2017-2020 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Andres125sx
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Joined: 13 Aug 2013, 10:15
Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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godlameroso wrote:Force India did state they're bringing 10 different wings throughout the season. Maybe we'll see special low downforce packages for certain races.
So we fans can´t enjoy testing because of cost cutting, manufacturers can´t develop their PU as they´d like because of cost cutting, we all suffer from --- tires because of cost cutting wich does not allow real testing to develop proper tires.... but teams can develop almost a complete aero package for every race when that´s considerably more expensive than any of the former and bring no interest at all to the sport or fans... #-o


Liberty, please introduce some common sense, F1 is on an urgent need

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WaikeCU
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Joined: 14 May 2014, 00:03

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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godlameroso wrote:Force India did state they're bringing 10 different wings throughout the season. Maybe we'll see special low downforce packages for certain races.
Was FI not one of those teams that are often mentioned regarding having financial problems? And then we see news like this where they're bringing 10 different wings. I don't understand.

shady
shady
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Joined: 07 Feb 2014, 06:31

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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mrluke wrote:
shady wrote:
Juzh wrote:Andy Green of FI said drag for next year is going up 5-10%, mainly from the wider tires.

According to Willem Toet a theoretical car with no downforce (but equal drag) is 21,46s slower round 82,18s lap of Barcelona. If you then cut the drag by 75% (as a result of having no wings and sorts), laptime gain is only 2s.
So a 75% decrease in drag is only worth 2s and predicted increase for next year is only 7.5% on average.

Are we to assume that after all, drag is actually not going to have much of an impact (on laptime anyway)? Or am I completely in the dark.

https://i.imgur.com/cQuQHY1.jpg
All things equal it may have an affect on the top speed, but there will be several all new PUs as well so it will be difficult to tease out from this side of the season. But I think the top speeds will still be close 330 - 360+..

#armchair
330 to 360? That is a HUGE range with regard to top speed.
This is track limited of course, just as it is every season. but overall Vmax will probably be 360+ kph, it was 372 i think this year.. Mex (someone correct me)

skoop
skoop
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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WaikeCU wrote:
godlameroso wrote:Force India did state they're bringing 10 different wings throughout the season. Maybe we'll see special low downforce packages for certain races.
Was FI not one of those teams that are often mentioned regarding having financial problems? And then we see news like this where they're bringing 10 different wings. I don't understand.
The thing is that the teams will always spend their budget. Banning testing wont lower the money they'll spend in total. Tehy'll just spend more in other areas.

The article mentions that every team will at least have 10 wings and the only race they haven't got a wing for yet is monza. The problem is that they'll have to much downforce and and couldn't up with a wing wich fits

shady
shady
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Turning Vanes + New BargeBoards are going to be a hot ticket this year, they are too close together now not to exploit that potential of basically sealing the inside of the front wheels. Add in a shorter t-tray that they dont have to 'push' back up because of the legality plank so probably have less need for that lift wing.

I cannot wait to compare Launch/Test/End of Year cars... This will be fun!!

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Image

Image
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roon
roon
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Tunnel/ramp entries to either side of the t-tray. Makes sense considering the location of the new free-areas. It might be features such as these which end up drawing our eye more than barge boards.

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FrukostScones
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Hulkenberg: " The new cars are brutally fast." "Like a video game on fast forward."

Also AMuS were able to witness Force India simulator laps. (HUL is at Renault now.)

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url

I hope those cars arent't too fast for some. One nasty crash in BCN testing (one of the tracks where they should gain the most) and we will see some knee jerk safety measures.

PS. wasn't ALO not very delighted with McHonda sim running (was it with simulated 2016 PU?)...

So from Newey/Horner words and now the Hulkenberg, we could think Renault should have made some good progress.
Finishing races is important, but racing is more important.

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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FrukostScones wrote:Hulkenberg: " The new cars are brutally fast." "Like a video game on fast forward."

Also AMuS were able to witness Force India simulator laps. (HUL is at Renault now.)

https://translate.google.com/translate? ... t=&act=url
Awesome, cant wait!!!! =D>
FrukostScones wrote: I hope those cars arent't too fast for some. One nasty crash in BCN testing (one of the tracks where they should gain the most) and we will see some knee jerk safety measures.
If they are too fast for some, then they shouldnt be in F1!
"In downforce we trust"

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Andres125sx
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Location: Madrid, Spain

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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djos wrote:
FrukostScones wrote: I hope those cars arent't too fast for some. One nasty crash in BCN testing (one of the tracks where they should gain the most) and we will see some knee jerk safety measures.
If they are too fast for some, then they shouldnt be in F1!
I think FrukostScones statement may be applied to tracks more than drivers, as it´s cornering speed what may bee too much for safety track standards.

Anycase, your statement still apply, if new cars are too fast for some track, then it shouldn´t be in F1. That would discard several tracks on the calendar, Monaco first of all

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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That all depends. Let's take Barcelona, where are the cars going to be faster? The simulator says turn 3 will be flat, they were almost flat in 2016 so it's essentially a wash there. They can't be flat in turn 4, or 5, everyone is flat in 6, but not 7, and neither will these cars, 8 definitely flat, 9 is the big question. If 9 is flat the gain will be massive, maybe .7 on that turn alone. Can't be flat in 10, everyone is already flat in 11. Then it's the super slow sector 3 which is impossible to be flat for more than an instant except on the run to turn 16.

I don't think we'll see much difference in sector one, a huge difference in sector 2, and a step forward in sector 3. But I'm probably wrong and they'll completely defy all expectations, and the drivers first words when describing the new cars will just be "sharp exhale".
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Dynamicflow
Dynamicflow
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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F1 2017 overtaking study for your perusal.

http://www.dynamic-flow.co.uk/uploads/5 ... _study.pdf

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godlameroso
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Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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Interesting
. The first thing to address
on the 2017 baseline model was the
size of the front tyre wake. The results
and visualisations showed that the
baseline front wing and its endplate
did not do a good enough job of
diverting the airflow outboard of the
wider front tyres
Even more interesting
Secondly, the ‘y-250’
area [where the neutral section of
the front wing terminates, 250mm
from the centreline] of the 2013 front
wing worked well with a raised nose
where the resulting y-250 vortex
interacted well with the vane-vortex
coming from the under-nose turning
vane. The lowered nose on the 2017
car changed the flow in that area
considerably. We were not getting the
flow conditions needed for producing
efficient downforce. There is also the
presence of the bigger bargeboard,
which would need careful placing
in the context of all the other flow
structures around the area. Also, the
baseline front wing produced more
downforce than required.
TL;DR version is that the floor is responsible for much more of the downforce, which by itself makes following another car easier, and that beyond 4 car lengths both balance and downforce loss is minimal.

Their model predicts that aero balance will shift forward significantly when following less than 1 car length creating aero oversteer and gradually starting at separations lower than 2 car lengths but they're not sure if every car will have this or if it's a result of their aero tweaks for their own 2017 optimized model. Whereas the last 6 years the downforce loss has strictly been in the front leading to understeer.

They also don't take into account the loss of drag a chasing car will get as a result of the larger foot print the new wider cars will create as they punch through the air. Or the delay in separation from clever cooling ducts, or the effect of the engine cover sail on helping to re-attach air flow to the rear wing.

In fact they say the disturbance to the now(for 2017) lower rear wing affects downforce at the floor which is why downforce balance moves to the front, because the front wing is much less affected by the wake of the leading car.

It could prove interesting, some drivers may deal with the oversteer better when following another car, but at least it gives me hope that cars will be able to do proper racing.
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wuzak
wuzak
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Joined: 30 Aug 2011, 03:26

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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godlameroso wrote:That all depends. Let's take Barcelona, where are the cars going to be faster? The simulator says turn 3 will be flat, they were almost flat in 2016 so it's essentially a wash there. They can't be flat in turn 4, or 5, everyone is flat in 6, but not 7, and neither will these cars, 8 definitely flat, 9 is the big question. If 9 is flat the gain will be massive, maybe .7 on that turn alone. Can't be flat in 10, everyone is already flat in 11. Then it's the super slow sector 3 which is impossible to be flat for more than an instant except on the run to turn 16.

I don't think we'll see much difference in sector one, a huge difference in sector 2, and a step forward in sector 3. But I'm probably wrong and they'll completely defy all expectations, and the drivers first words when describing the new cars will just be "sharp exhale".
I'm not so sure on that.

I have seen estimates that turn 3 will be taken at speeds as much as 40km/h faster than 2016. Similar improvements in the medium speed corners should see a drop in the sector time.

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djos
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Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Proposed 2017 F1 Aerodynamic Changes

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It looks like most circuits have been requested by the FIA to make changes due to expected higher speeds - eg Melbourne:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/127646
According to FIA data provided to the Australian Grand Prix Corporation, mid-corner speeds at the track will increase by 20-50km/h at mid-to-high-speed turns, braking points will be 20-30 metres later and lap times will be three to four seconds quicker.

That has prompted a number of safety-related revisions, with tyre wall reprofiling at Turns 1, 6, and 14, plus over AU$100,000 worth of Tecpro high-speed barriers at Turn 12.
"In downforce we trust"