RBR 2016 Power Unit

[giantfan10]

i dont think red bull has much input... this says it all IMHO... Ghosn said in an interview with French newspaper Le Figaro. “We’ll also carry on developing our activity as an engine supplier, but only in accordance with the interests of our works team.”

[FoxHound]

No, you have only one party, engine maker and supplier decides.

No, you have 2 suppliers...Ilmor and Renault, and 2 official benefactors....Renault's official team and Red Bull.
Ilmor have a complete interest in helping Red Bull, and Renault a complete interest in helping themselves.

If an engine supplier is meant to be deeply embedded in the team, you begin to see the working issues.

It is....design by committee.

Whatever Ilmor develops for Renault, Renault will get full IP rights for it.

Is this factual? Or supposition?

[turbof1]

Is this factual? Or supposition?

Factual. This is how consultancy works. Basically Renault outsourced a part of the development work.

[FoxHound]

Is this factual? Or supposition?

Factual. This is how consultancy works. Basically Renault outsourced a part of the development work.

So Red Bull are pumping millions into Ilmor, with nothing more than a hope for a better engine?

[turbof1]

So Red Bull are pumping millions into Ilmor, with nothing more than a hope for a better engine?

That's supposition. First of all let's look at possible costs/investments akready made:
-Red Bull will have paid for the concept of Ilmor's combustion chamber during 2015. However, it is possible that since Renault will use this development, the latter will pay Red Bull back for the consultancy effort. It is also possible it will not be refunded. That's the risk Red Bull took in any case.

-Any other costs made like the AVL rig or rigs, whether or not in the newly or not newly constructed building 9, are investments Red Bull will have to use anyway. Red Bull is from 2016 on a customer team, meaning it will not get the same data stream from Renault as before. It will be dependent on its own to develop cooling and structural support inside the chassis, for the PU. These AVL rigs will help to that. It's the same really for customer teams like Williams or HAAS.

Then about future costs:
-From 2016 onwards, Ilmor will be working, to quote the official statement, "for and under" Renault. I hope you understand that means Red Bull is cut out here. Ilmor will consult Renault and Renault pays Ilmor accordingly. Red Bull will only be paying what the Renault contract demands, and with one can consider as "customer costs" like development of cooling solutions, etc. It will not be paying, atleast directly, Ilmor.

Red Bull will have very little to say anymore concerning the Renault PU. The most they can do, will be making suggestions. It'll be Ilmor, Magneti Mirelli (I sincerely hope I did not misspell that name) and others consulting and perhaps supplying parts to Renault, and Renault delivering both to its works teams and to Red Bull or even just to TAG Heuer.

[wuzak]

My understanding was that Ilien's work this year was in subcontracting to Renault, not Red Bull.

This was done in an unstructured manner. Ilien's involvement next season will be more structured and more full time.

I also understand that the mythical Ilmor head/combustion chamber gave similar results to Renault's.

[turbof1]

My understanding was that Ilien's work this year was in subcontracting to Renault, not Red Bull.

This was done in an unstructured manner. Ilien's involvement next season will be more structured and more full time.

I also understand that the mythical Ilmor head/combustion chamber gave similar results to Renault's.

It's tough for us outsiders to understand what really went down, isn't it. Maybe we'll get to hear within a few years what truly happened.

[Sevach]

Even if Red Bull and Renault split for good in a couple of years, there will just be a whole lot of finger pointing and sour grapes.

[ringo]

from Marko:

Marko added that Red Bull will receive the same Renault engine as the factory team.

"I'm glad that Renault has finally decided to take over Lotus and remain in Formula 1," he said.

"We will get the same Renault power units as the factory team. Mario Illien, with his company Ilmor, will work as a consultant with Renault to develop the engine. Renault asked him to do that."

Looks like it's all renault. But i do feel if redbull wants more they can pay renault for the extra work to get them more.

[giantfan10]

from Marko:

Marko added that Red Bull will receive the same Renault engine as the factory team.

"I'm glad that Renault has finally decided to take over Lotus and remain in Formula 1," he said.

"We will get the same Renault power units as the factory team. Mario Illien, with his company Ilmor, will work as a consultant with Renault to develop the engine. Renault asked him to do that."

Looks like it's all renault. But i do feel if redbull wants more they can pay renault for the extra work to get them more.

from Renault : We’ll also carry on developing our activity as an engine supplier, but only in accordance with the interests of our works team."

[giantfan10]

from Marko:

Marko added that Red Bull will receive the same Renault engine as the factory team.

"I'm glad that Renault has finally decided to take over Lotus and remain in Formula 1," he said.

"We will get the same Renault power units as the factory team. Mario Illien, with his company Ilmor, will work as a consultant with Renault to develop the engine. Renault asked him to do that."

Looks like it's all renault. But i do feel if redbull wants more they can pay renault for the extra work to get them more.

from Renault : We’ll also carry on developing our activity as an engine supplier, but only in accordance with the interests of our works team."

i think that was directed to red bull making it quite clear that the renault chassis will be their main focus and not whatever demands red bull has.

[Rolly7]

If we take the current Renault PU as a base. We know Reanult didn't like Illiens cilinder ideas. What if Illien made some custom pistons and heads to increase power, they could still be using the same ERS and gain an advantage over the stanard Renault engine.

Even if the Illien cilinders would produce more exhaust gasses, the ERS would gain from it.

Look at Honda vs Renault this year, there nothing wrong with Renaults ERS, problem is the ICE. The Fia dictated most of the ICE design, so Crank, rods, blocks are pretty simylar. It's about pistons, heads and turbo's

Honda ERS problem is mostly down to the Turbocharger, not the mgu's.

But don't underestimate the influence of exhaust gasses on ERS.

Just thinking.... what would the benefits of exhaust blown technology applied to turbos be ?

[djos]

Just thinking.... what would the benefits of exhaust blown technology applied to turbos be ?

Errrr, that's kinda the whole point of a Turbo, to use the exhaust gasses to spin a Turbine to drive a compressor to cram more air into the engine and boost power and or efficiency.

[Rolly7]

Forgive me for my ignorance. I get the turbo principles, i was just wondering whether or not supplying constant exhaust gases at a higher pressure when off throttle would make a difference or not.

[djos]

Forgive me for my ignorance. I get the turbo principles, i was just wondering whether or not supplying constant exhaust gases at a higher pressure when off throttle would make a difference or not.

Yes, that's called an anti-lag system and there are several ways to do it:

1/ using fuel sprayed into the exhaust ahead of the turbine - wasteful (and illegal) in a fuel restricted formula like F1, iirc it is used in rally cross

2/ cold blowing - tbh im not 100% sure if this is used still or not?

3/ using the MGU-H powered by the ERS to spool the turbo (currently used in F1)