2021 Engine thread

[NL_Fer]

Both Mercedes and Renault unhappy about the new engine proposal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41833948
Issue is that it will be a whole new development cost.

As expected. Merc doesn’t want their butt kicked by a new little player like Ilmor or Cossworth. Ferrari does not want to lose either, but they don’t know if they can beat Mercedes with this mgu-h turbo setup.

[AJI]

Both Mercedes and Renault unhappy about the new engine proposal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41833948
Issue is that it will be a whole new development cost.

Here we go again...
While it's annoying that we're still in no-mans-land, I'm glad Toto has kicked off. The new 'spec' is a joke

[roon]

-Improve the sound.
-Recommend a turbo 90deg V6.

What.

All the development & innovation seen from the 1.6L hybrid era could have been found in a variety of other engine formats. The V6 was arbitrary. Could have been an I3, or an I4, a V4. Or a V10. Or a V12. Various displacements. The fuel flow limit was the crucial bit driving development of the H and the combustion chamber.

Adjust the fuel flow rate to compensate for the increased frictional losses of higher cylinder counts. Power output the same. Sound: different. Total thermal efficiency goes down but in-cylinder efficiency would be the same.

Only headache is that your split turbo starts to get very very long...

[Just_a_fan]

As expected. Merc doesn’t want their butt kicked by a new little player like Ilmor or Cossworth. Ferrari does not want to lose either, but they don’t know if they can beat Mercedes with this mgu-h turbo setup.

Ilmor can't take on the might of Mercedes. They provide input to the likes of Mercedes for a start.

Cosworth are no threat to anyone.

[63l8qrrfy6]

Both Mercedes and Renault unhappy about the new engine proposal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41833948
Issue is that it will be a whole new development cost.

As expected. Merc doesn’t want their butt kicked by a new little player like Ilmor or Cossworth. Ferrari does not want to lose either, but they don’t know if they can beat Mercedes with this mgu-h turbo setup.

That's nonsense, Merc has already poached all good Cosworth and Ilmor engineers. These 'little players' have no chance of competing with the big boys (bar Honda). They don't have the budget, the resources and the knowledge.

I keep saying this but the days when Keith Duckworth designed championship winning engines in a shed pretty much by himself are long gone.

Today there is no replacement for gargantuan facilities, legions of engineers and bottomless pockets.

[wuzak]

-Improve the sound.
-Recommend a turbo 90deg V6.

What.

All the development & innovation seen from the 1.6L hybrid era could have been found in a variety of other engine formats. The V6 was arbitrary. Could have been an I3, or an I4, a V4. Or a V10. Or a V12. Various displacements. The fuel flow limit was the crucial bit driving development of the H and the combustion chamber.

Adjust the fuel flow rate to compensate for the increased frictional losses of higher cylinder counts. Power output the same. Sound: different. Total thermal efficiency goes down but in-cylinder efficiency would be the same.

Only headache is that your split turbo starts to get very very long...

V10 or V12 would be longer and heavier than the V6 for the same capacity and power.

[wuzak]

That said, Racecar Engineering had an article back in 2012 or 2013, maybe even before, suggesting a 3l 10,000rpm flat 12 with turbo and ERS.

[foxmulder_ms]

F1 needs to decide whether it is about cutting edge tech or not. If it is about being the pinnacle of technology and a medium for futuristic ideas, enough with artificial road blocks. I want to see big car/technology companies duking it out! I want Toyota, BMW, Ford in this. In the future even Apple or Google in F1!!?? I am sick of hearing cost cuts for mom&pup teams You do not have 400million$, just get out.

Because of this, the rules should be designed only for big car and tech companies.

[hemichromis]

So keeping the current engines but
Increasing the rpm limit and getting rid of the fuel flow restriction.
I believe the fuel flow restriction should be adjusted so they can have 120kg per hour only at 15-18,000 rpm.

I do believe that the MGU-H is the future for car engines as manufacturers are aiming for power very low in the rpm band - below 1500rpm. An MGU-H can reduce the lag there very effectively.

I would love to see if one of the manufacturers had developed an example of a MGU-H equipped road car.
I mean one that would cost £30,000 rather than 2.5 million.

[toraabe]

Just increasing the maximum rpm from 15k to 18k means shorter stroke and larger bore than today.

[hemichromis]

They haven't got any reason to increase the rpm at which they use their engine unless there is a benefit in fuel flow at that rpm. Currently the limit is 15000rpm and yet even hitting 13000 during a race is rare.

[crackers]

can they look at power to weight ratios as a fixed rule?

allow the manufacturers to produce any type of engine configuration they like, that is relevant to their brand and marketing direction.

rules would be built around fixed power to weight.

so as an example cars weighing 700kg can output 700bhp, cars with 1000kg have 1000bhp

different tracks would deliver different results, the top step of imola would for sure not be the same at monaco

and manufacturers cant spend there way to performance gains because of the weight and power limits

[marmer]

i don't get how they could say it will cost a great deal to develop. the basic design is staying the same but without unit H

surly a bigger better mgu k is along the lines Merc want to go the
actual ice is not changing a great deal.

and how are both engines being developed at the same time. most of the development on the current engines are done now. next year or 2019 i suspect there will be a leveling off of engine performance from all providers. the only thing that will come will be reliability improvements after this which will come from natural progression of parts failing and finding out why most of which will help the new motor anyway

[gdogg371]

Either one of two things should happen next:

- Go all in with the hybrids. Energy recovery front and rear, keep the MGU-H but make it a stock component to keep costs down, up revs and fuel flow to help offset the weight of the hybrids and keep the noise brigade happy.

- Send F1 down the route of horse racing. Make a statement that it is about entertainment and no longer represents the cutting edge of technology and bring back 3 litre V10's with a 21k RPM rev limit or 3.5 litre V12's with an 18k rev limit.

Last option you'd likely end up with a spec engine to a large degree as car companies are not going to sink hundreds of millions into building gas guzzling, normally aspirated grenades anymore.

The actual FIA proposals sound like a half baked, lily livered route aimed at trying to get more manufacturers onboard and pleasing no one else at the same time...

[hurril]

Either one of two things should happen next:

- Go all in with the hybrids. Energy recovery front and rear, keep the MGU-H but make it a stock component to keep costs down, up revs and fuel flow to help offset the weight of the hybrids and keep the noise brigade happy.

- Send F1 down the route of horse racing. Make a statement that it is about entertainment and no longer represents the cutting edge of technology and bring back 3 litre V10's with a 21k RPM rev limit or 3.5 litre V12's with an 18k rev limit.

Last option you'd likely end up with a spec engine to a large degree as car companies are not going to sink hundreds of millions into building gas guzzling, normally aspirated grenades anymore.

The actual FIA proposals sound like a half baked, lily livered route aimed at trying to get more manufacturers onboard and pleasing no one else at the same time...

This is my own take on this as well and also why I don't really understand the half-way positions. I could see an F1 Classic show where, say, you can have V10:s with pure mechanical injection, 3.5L and nothing exotic. I would watch it and the sound/ noises with be one erotic.

If we want to run real F1, then that should be fairly open to the exotic stuff as well as expensive development paths.