2016 German Grand Prix - Hockenheim, 29-31 July

[godlameroso]

I'll say it again this isn't a power track, the thing that limits you the most is the rear tires, the one that can get on the gas sooner wins. In 2012 fastest race lap was about a second faster than Hamilton's fastest lap in 2014 and that's what I more or less expect from the fastest this weekend, probably mid 18's. To prove that rear traction is more important than anything, in 2010, without DRS, the fastest race lap was in the 15's(what I expect pole to be this year). You'd figure the cars would be insanely faster now with all that extra power, but it's useless if you can't put it on the ground.

[krisfx]

I'll say it again this isn't a power track, the thing that limits you the most is the rear tires, the one that can get on the gas sooner wins. In 2012 fastest race lap was about a second faster than Hamilton's fastest lap in 2014 and that's what I more or less expect from the fastest this weekend, probably mid 18's. To prove that rear traction is more important than anything, in 2010, without DRS, the fastest race lap was in the 15's(what I expect pole to be this year). You'd figure the cars would be insanely faster now with all that extra power, but it's useless if you can't put it on the ground.

You could say this for every track...

[Vasconia]

Everytime this race comes I feel angry when I look back and see how great the old track was.

Chances of rain? because last race sucked.

Mercedes will smash the competence, as always. Ferrari should be strong here, followed by RB but I hope Williams will make " a come back" here after some bad performances.

Qualy:

1. Rosberg
2. Hamilton
3. Vettel
4. Bottas
5. Kimi
6. Massa
7. Hulkenberg
8. Perez
9. Saiz
10. Alonso

Race....almost the same but Lewis will take this one if Nico cant make a better start.

[basti313]

It amazes me that we've just had Merc utterly dominant at the Hungaroring and that people still say this. The hungaroring is a circuit where your engine performance matters very very little. We even had qualifying in the wet, which makes the engine even less important, and Merc dominated more.

Merc don't have a downforce advantage because of their engine, they have a downforce advantage because their car is designed better than anyone else's.

I think the reason for this, is that RBR has been spreading the "we have the best chassis, but aren't winning because of our crappy PU " propaganda for so long & prolifically that simple minded F1 fans now take it as gospel.

This. It's so irritating to see here and other forums dense people coming to the conclusion that the Merc PU is the only reason for their dominance. If that were the case, why aren't Williams, Force India, and Manor doing better? It's a fallacy in their logic. Never mind the fact that Merc have out-developed everyone on the grid.

Sure. But the PU is part of the dominance.
Everything puts together:
- Best power deployment
- Best max power
- Best rear tire usage
- Efficient aero
- Good chassis

In the end you have the 1 sec advantage we can see when they need it. For example this weekend as the undercut was tried...they just cranked up the pace by a second and avoided it...

[justmoi]

Contrary to popular belief, downforce is more important than straight line speed around here. It's a very intense track, and requires a lot of mechanical grip for turn two, the annoying hair pin, the hairpin right after, then the way the track undulates makes getting out of that turn extremely tricky, the blind entry into the super fast right hander, the twisty infield, and the super fast first turn all demand good aero, and grip. The penalty for running high downforce is .25 seconds on the two straights, but you can gain up to a second in the curves with higher downforce. Williams always struggles here, precisely because it's an aero circuit.

Wait I'm lost on the Williams always struggle here part. Isn't it the same Williams (Bottas) who finished 2nd in '14? Keeping a fast recovering Lewis behind for a number of laps

[Vasconia]

Contrary to popular belief, downforce is more important than straight line speed around here. It's a very intense track, and requires a lot of mechanical grip for turn two, the annoying hair pin, the hairpin right after, then the way the track undulates makes getting out of that turn extremely tricky, the blind entry into the super fast right hander, the twisty infield, and the super fast first turn all demand good aero, and grip. The penalty for running high downforce is .25 seconds on the two straights, but you can gain up to a second in the curves with higher downforce. Williams always struggles here, precisely because it's an aero circuit.

Wait I'm lost on the Williams always struggle here part. Isn't it the same Williams (Bottas) who finished 2nd in '14? Keeping a fast recovering Lewis behind for a number of laps

I have seen that they are hoping for a good race here so I guess its not such a bad track from them.

[justmoi]

What percentage of the lap here is spent on full throttle?

[Phil]

And adding to that, does anyone know what mileage the engines have that are being run?

[flickerf1]

I think the reason for this, is that RBR has been spreading the "we have the best chassis, but aren't winning because of our crappy PU " propaganda for so long & prolifically that simple minded F1 fans now take it as gospel.

This. It's so irritating to see here and other forums dense people coming to the conclusion that the Merc PU is the only reason for their dominance. If that were the case, why aren't Williams, Force India, and Manor doing better? It's a fallacy in their logic. Never mind the fact that Merc have out-developed everyone on the grid.

Sure. But the PU is part of the dominance.
Everything puts together:
- Best power deployment
- Best max power
- Best rear tire usage
- Efficient aero
- Good chassis

In the end you have the 1 sec advantage we can see when they need it. For example this weekend as the undercut was tried...they just cranked up the pace by a second and avoided it...

Yeah, I know that the PU is a very important part of the car, but some people on here and other forums have repeatedly said that the Merc dominance is ALL down to the PU. That's the poont I was trying to convey.

[Phil]

So we all have to deal with a never ending discussion between two parties because of one word? Nice.

[godlameroso]

The power unit is worth .3 around here. Drivability, traction out of corners matters more. All the lap time comes from turns 1, 2 & 3 , the section after the second hairpin, and the last two turns. I would waste my time being fast there than the two straights.

Also to people that hate on this track vs the old one, the old one sucked. Long boring straight + chicane rinse and repeat. At least the new one is a short and much more challenging lap.

[sosic2121]

Everytime this race comes I feel angry when I look back and see how great the old track was.

+1

[PlatinumZealot]

The Mercedes should be able to run more downforce than other teams because of their engine's grunt. It always annoys me why Williams don't put on downforce just to see what happens. Perhaps their aero is just not efficient as Merc's.

It amazes me that we've just had Merc utterly dominant at the Hungaroring and that people still say this. The hungaroring is a circuit where your engine performance matters very very little. We even had qualifying in the wet, which makes the engine even less important, and Merc dominated more.

Merc don't have a downforce advantage because of their engine, they have a downforce advantage because their car is designed better than anyone else's.

I think you missed my point though. Mercedes aero is right up there. Never denied it. But it is a fact that the more engine power you have the more down-force you can run and get away with it. There is nothing to lose because the additional drag gets overcome by the grunt of the engine. All things being equal, more power means you can push the car harder through the air. All the better if your car has good traction out of corners. I believe the Williams and Force India packages are not even close to Mercedes in making efficient downforce so they seem to pay a higher price in drag than Merc when they add downforce. However, I believe they should still try going past their comfort zones despite that fact.

[PlatinumZealot]

I'll say it again this isn't a power track, the thing that limits you the most is the rear tires, the one that can get on the gas sooner wins. In 2012 fastest race lap was about a second faster than Hamilton's fastest lap in 2014 and that's what I more or less expect from the fastest this weekend, probably mid 18's. To prove that rear traction is more important than anything, in 2010, without DRS, the fastest race lap was in the 15's(what I expect pole to be this year). You'd figure the cars would be insanely faster now with all that extra power, but it's useless if you can't put it on the ground.

You forgot about agility though, it's not all long corners and drags races like on Tilke tracks. Hockenheim your car needs to be agile. This years cars are heavier even when empty than the one-stop fuel tankers of 2009. They don't stand a chance in those swift direction change segments.

[ChrisDanger]

A blast from the past: Jos Verstappen at the 1994 German GP. And a reminder why refueling was banned.



Only minor burns were suffered, which says a lot for the efficacy of the overalls!