2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Verstappen could not give up and brake and above all, the problem was Raikkonen hitting Verstappen on the first contact. Vettel pushed Verstappen to the left, where there was no room. But still then, Raikkonen slightly moved inward and clipped verstappen's front left with his rear right. Vettel set things in motion by coming too far to the left. The contact between Max' FL and Kimi's RR then obviously catapulted Kimi into Vettel's sidepod, destroying Kimi's car and right suspension, which made him become a skateboard on high velocity, and immediately terminated Vettel's race. Vettel could go on through the corner, Hamilton then missed him marginally.

The real problem then was that kimi carried enough speed and was a projectile that then again slammed into max, and then terminated max' race, and alonso's for that matter.

The only bit of criticism i can find for Max is that he possibly should have been better aware that kimi was in an uncontrollable situation and he should have had his eyes open knowing he could come from the left - Hamilton obviously feared that might happen so he took the corner wide and could avoid it just barely.

Perhaps Max should have hit the brakes, and see kimi skid past and collect Alonso [that was always going to happen unfortunately, though if max had braked, perhaps Alonso would have seen him coming]. He would then have been able to go on in P3, behind Vettel and Hamilton,

then Vettel obviously was done for either way due to the clear amount of green coolant spraying out of every side which caused the slide and then wall contact. It would then have been 1) Hamilton 2) Verstappen.

Had Alonso been missed by Kimi too, then he very well could have ended 3rd even. Ricciardo had a oil problem and Bottas couldn't make an impact there. Mercedes ' 'bad' pace was obscured because of the malfunctioning RedBull of DannyRic.

It was amazing to see Alonso being able to last so long with that wreck of a car. But he had the most amazing start of them all and his Mclaren was capable of something spectacular.

To copy Sky's words' We got robbed from an exciting race.

Though i understand to a point it's a first corner incident, blame still is with Vettel. He had a very poor start, Max' had a better start and he saw it, and then tried to block Verstappen completely, but there was no room there. I understand Vettel could not have seen Raikkonen, so perhaps he thought there was more room, but it's not a 2 - car race anyway and he would have had the inside line in the coming corner which Vettel would have covered anyway.

Verstappen would have had Vettel either way after the first couple of corners, he was just plain faster. If Vettel not moved across as much as he did though, Raikkonen would have had P1, and a lot could have happened from there. But instead, Vettel just made himself too wide, which cost him getting a lead into the WDC this race, potentially terminated the championship [like Hamilton's burning engine last year cost him the title], and thus not only destroyed his own race, but also kimi's, max's and alonso's. that means 4 cars out thanks to 1 hothead.

Either way, there is no way this can be blamed on Verstappen.

And let's be honest here, Kimi ALSO could have driven a bit wider to the left. he damn wel knew Max was there, and he also could have anticipated Vettel would come to the left. Hell, we could have seen Vettel take out Kimi and himself anyway if Max was not collected.
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F312T2
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Shrieker wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 22:49
https://youtu.be/wAOMOmsqpUY?t=75
If you watch closely, it's quite apparent that he shows an incredibly quick reaction to pull out of it when Raikkonen appears on the left and starts veering to the right.
Yes and Raikkonen had some astonishing speed when he passed, he could have passed Vettel at the first corner.
From the on-board camera, everything goes so fast. Can't really blame Verstappen.

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Sieper
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Raikonnen had a great start, just about the only good thing we saw of him this weekend. Just when we didn't need it, oh the irony. Should he perhaps not have gambled it, 3 cars wide, just to try and keep the championship leader clear of trouble? Perhaps too much to ask from a racing driver, but he has 17 years of experience.

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Stormy
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - Marina Bay, 15-17 September

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Treble wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 14:21
Vettel proved another time that HE CAN'T manage the PRESSURE. Totally his fault...
What has pressure got to do with squeezing someone? I think his endurance for pressure has improved a lot over the years. This was just him not being smart enough.

Squid
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Vettel's move was textbook pole position defending. Drivers have been doing it since forever. Hell, Hamilton did it on Stroll in Monza just a few weeks ago.

There's no blame here. Neither Vettel nor Raikkonen could see each other because Verstappen was there. Vettel went for a standard defending move, which made Verstappen twitch to the left just as Vettel cleared him and Raikkonen was rocketing past him. Verstappen's left front wheel went between Raikkonen's wheels. As Raikkonen was much faster, his right rear wheel latched on Verstappen's left front slinging him into Vettel. Clear example of a racing incident.

Everyone apparently becomes a psychologist when it comes to Vettel. There was nothing "hotheaded" about this. It was a standard defending move that went wrong because Raikkonen got a monster start and ended up somewhere unexpected. If Raikkonen hadn't been there, Vettel would have completed the move normally and we wouldn't be having this stupid discussion.

This is why the stewards ruled it as a racing incident. It was a normal move that went wrong because none of the drivers involved had enough information to prevent it.

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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One thing i havent noticed anyone mention yet was how did Alonso get caught in this. On that slow motion replay posted a page or 2 back, he got down to turn 1, surely he could see Max had damage ? Yet he squeezed Verstappen hard at the apex and them after that Kimi came back like a shark for a second bite! If Alonso ran around the outside of T1 he may well have survived.

Why was he so close to Max!
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Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Alonso saw an opening and was focusing on that. he could not have seen the collision betwen max and kimi becuase there were cars in between and there are head protection blocking the view. on his onboard you can see he couldn't have seen that on time before it happened and kimi cam crashing in. even then max was blocking the view on kimi.

there was no way alonso could have seen what was going on and thus all his amazing work was gone to waste.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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So he was like Vettel then. Thought it was ok to run hard and aggressive against max. I thought most drivers realised that doeant work.

He didn't leave max much room. Neither did Vettel. Look what happened
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Edax
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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NathanOlder wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:36
One thing i havent noticed anyone mention yet was how did Alonso get caught in this. On that slow motion replay posted a page or 2 back, he got down to turn 1, surely he could see Max had damage ? Yet he squeezed Verstappen hard at the apex and them after that Kimi came back like a shark for a second bite! If Alonso ran around the outside of T1 he may well have survived.

Why was he so close to Max!
VES had damage but the car was still under control. VES and ALO would made the corner, together without a problem. RAI simply collected them both (obviously not his fault as both his steering and braking were gone).

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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@NathanOlder,

Agreed 100%. But to be honest, this has 0% to do with max. ANY driver in there would have had the same result. If it was hamilton there, he would have been out. Hell, vettel was out anyway, but if it was Vettel there and not Max, it would have been exactly the same.

Kimi came catapulting in from the left, can't blame him much though, but the fact is, he touched max, he was carrying so much more speed that he should have been aware of potential dangers, thus, leaving more space. there was half a carwidth to the left for kimi to move without any repurcussion. it would have potentially completely prevented this massacre.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Edax wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:48
NathanOlder wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:36
One thing i havent noticed anyone mention yet was how did Alonso get caught in this. On that slow motion replay posted a page or 2 back, he got down to turn 1, surely he could see Max had damage ? Yet he squeezed Verstappen hard at the apex and them after that Kimi came back like a shark for a second bite! If Alonso ran around the outside of T1 he may well have survived.

Why was he so close to Max!
VES had damage but the car was still under control.
if you look close to the onboards, i think his front left suspension was damaged beyond repair anyway. it was angled too hard after the contact, especially if you compare it to the right. he had 100% suspension damage from the contact anyway, so it remains to be seen if he would have gone past the first corner anyway. reminds me of his contact with his teammate.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Edax wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:48
NathanOlder wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:36
One thing i havent noticed anyone mention yet was how did Alonso get caught in this. On that slow motion replay posted a page or 2 back, he got down to turn 1, surely he could see Max had damage ? Yet he squeezed Verstappen hard at the apex and them after that Kimi came back like a shark for a second bite! If Alonso ran around the outside of T1 he may well have survived.

Why was he so close to Max!
VES had damage but the car was still under control. VES and ALO would made the corner, together without a problem. RAI simply collected them both (obviously not his fault as both his steering and braking were gone).
No way would they have made the coner without contact. The moment before kimi hits, alonso and max were about to hit. Look at the lines of max and alonso. Max was no way not going to hit alonso. Watch the slow motion video very carefully and pause it just before kimi hit max
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NathanOlder
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Manoah2u wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 23:49
@NathanOlder,

Agreed 100%. But to be honest, this has 0% to do with max. ANY driver in there would have had the same result. If it was hamilton there, he would have been out. Hell, vettel was out anyway, but if it was Vettel there and not Max, it would have been exactly the same.

Kimi came catapulting in from the left, can't blame him much though, but the fact is, he touched max, he was carrying so much more speed that he should have been aware of potential dangers, thus, leaving more space. there was half a carwidth to the left for kimi to move without any repurcussion. it would have potentially completely prevented this massacre.
Agreed. I just think if Seb gave max more room (what a lot of people are saying you should do around max until he calms down a little) then it would have all been fine in to T1
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Quantum
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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Shrieker wrote:
17 Sep 2017, 19:33
@Nathan,

F1F reporting the same. The team expected him to retire, but he nurtured the car home.
I watched some onboard footage during the race and I couldn't pick anything up, that is no measure of course.
Besides that, I don't recall hearing a radio warning Ricciardo of the gearbox problem. I can't find any radio transcripts either. :(

As an aside, if a car has loss of gearbox pressure on lap 15 at Singapore, it generally ends up toast. It's the second highest gear change to meterage after monaco, but actually surpasses Monaco by way of being 60kms longer race distance. Guessing the cogs were made of adamantium.
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Phil
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Re: 2017 Singapore Grand Prix - 1st lap crash discussion

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I think the main issue here is that Vettel had a bad start. The rest is a chain reaction of that. Max had a better start and ended close to Vettel, too close, so the swerve to left wasnt justified by Vettel. To make matters worse, by that point, Kimi who had the best start, had already sandwiched Max.
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