Why is nobody discussing Bottas' Halo problems?

[jjn9128]

When was the last time a driver crawled out from an overturned car anyway?

When was the last time a Halo could have saved a drivers life- or prefented a bigger accident?

Justin Wilson in 2015, and as with a number of the test cases the FIA used the margin between being just a scary accident and a fatality was just millimetres.

This is what I hate about the argument against halo. The complaint is that the likelihood of the accidents it is designed to protect are rare... but what happens if the car is engulfed in fire??!?!?!?!?! An event even less likely in modern Formula 1/single seater motorsport, and the risk already significantly reduced by the impenetrable fuel cells, fireproof overalls which can withstand ridiculous temperatures (Andy Green with Bloodhound is using the next gen alpinestars suit which is even better).

As pointed out in the FIA presentation video, self extraction from an overturned car is likely to be easier with halo, as it rests on the halo and the evacuation aperture will be wider.

[Shrieker]

http://picpaste.com/2017-11-24_21.28.13-PyW6oBxW.png

Is this a possible way out ? If the orange line was the asphalt, could you get a crash helmet out with the headrest possibly being in the way ?

Maybe they're expecting it to get destroyed in a roll situation ? But then doesn't it become just a bet of what shape it takes ?

[PlatinumZealot]

When was the last time a driver crawled out from an overturned car anyway?

Alonso at Australia 2016. Sergio Perez Hungary 2015 fp1.

Hmm. Alsonso's car was sorta on it's side wasn't it?

Oh! for perez How could i forget that one?!

[Andres125sx]

When was the last time a driver crawled out from an overturned car anyway?

Past season comes to mind

[NathanOlder]

Thankfully fires are not a common occurrence anymore and when they are they tend to stay in the engine bay.
Anyone know the rules for Marshalls when a car is actually on fire and turned over car they try and flip the car.
Would also be interesting to see someone try and pull out an unconscious person (crash test dummies not suggesting someone knocks a driver out)

Fires are uncommon indeed, but they are more common than drivers being hit by flying debry.

Roger Williamson accident or Ayrton Senna accident, those could be the scenarios that with or without a halo could bring. Halo trapping a driver in a burning car, or driver being killed by flying debry.

If the drivers had their own choice, i think only Grosjean and Massa would use a halo. One has a good reason 09 hungary. And the other is scared of everything.

[George-Jung]

[Sieper]

I see you!

[proteus]

He didnt stay turned but it could have happened.

[DiogoBrand]

Thankfully fires are not a common occurrence anymore and when they are they tend to stay in the engine bay.
Anyone know the rules for Marshalls when a car is actually on fire and turned over car they try and flip the car.
Would also be interesting to see someone try and pull out an unconscious person (crash test dummies not suggesting someone knocks a driver out)

Fires are uncommon indeed, but they are more common than drivers being hit by flying debry.

Roger Williamson accident or Ayrton Senna accident, those could be the scenarios that with or without a halo could bring. Halo trapping a driver in a burning car, or driver being killed by flying debry.

If the drivers had their own choice, i think only Grosjean and Massa would use a halo. One has a good reason 09 hungary. And the other is scared of everything.

The thing is: the Halo would do nothing to help Massa. The gap is several times bigger than the spring that hit him.

[jjn9128]

The thing is: the Halo would do nothing to help Massa. The gap is several times bigger than the spring that hit him.

At this point it's like beating a dead cat. Halo is not designed to deal with small objects, but the fact it is there statistically reduces the possibility of a driver being hit - which is where the 17% figure banded about in the media came from. However to cope with small objects the Zylon panel was added to helmets, the visor hinge was beefed up, and new tests were brought in to improve helmet standards, with another step coming in the next couple of years.

[Ennis]

The thing is: the Halo would do nothing to help Massa. The gap is several times bigger than the spring that hit him.

At this point it's like beating a dead cat. Halo is not designed to deal with small objects, but the fact it is there statistically reduces the possibility of a driver being hit - which is where the 17% figure banded about in the media came from. However to cope with small objects the Zylon panel was added to helmets, the visor hinge was beefed up, and new tests were brought in to improve helmet standards, with another step coming in the next couple of years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYkGjUHstKY#t=13m17s

I'm in work and can't see the video you posted, so apologies if it already addresses this.

I would hope an area as technical as F1 ran simulations for the safety aspect of this, hence the 17% number you quoted.

Which objects did they run through that simulation, and did they also simulate for the possibility of smaller objects (which could in theory be deflected entirely, or deflected away from the helmet and towards the body)?

[Vasconia]

First thing that came into my mind
https://twitter.com/thebuxtonblog/statu ... 6590327809

Same here, but I hope that with time and training they will decrease this time. If not it´s a stupid change.

[jjn9128]

I'm in work and can't see the video you posted, so apologies if it already addresses this.

I would hope an area as technical as F1 ran simulations for the safety aspect of this, hence the 17% number you quoted.

Which objects did they run through that simulation, and did they also simulate for the possibility of smaller objects (which could in theory be deflected entirely, or deflected away from the helmet and towards the body)?

Yes so they virtually 'threw' millions of objects from multiple angles and trajectories at the car. They state that while a screen would offer more protection for the driver, just having a structure is enough to reduce the event of an object hitting a driver. It's a legitimate concern, I forget who it was but I seem to recall an Indy car driver was knocked out by a flying winglet the year the manufacturer body kits were released?! [Edit] A quick google search shows it was Hinchcliff http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/moto ... 50534.html

They did not reveal the potential paths of objects in the video, so I can't comment on if deflections could have implications for the body (ribcage, lap region...etc) of the driver. My guess would be that the aperture is so small and the chassis of F1 cars so high that it is unlikely for a projectile to have a path which would allow it to be deflected down into the driver's body, BUT without evidence to back that up it's just a theory.

[Jolle]

Insights change over the years. Racingcars didn't have seatbelts because they thought it was safer to be thrown from the car then be strapped in it.

Fire isn't the biggest threat anymore and there are various safety standerds to counteract this (more marshall posts, better safety equipment in cars, no more refuelling, etc).

In case of a big crash, with cars overturning or all smashed up, the instruction is that the driver has to remain in the car and be extracted by a safety crew. Except for the very race cases of a fire, a drivers is the safest in the car.

[Just_a_fan]

Insights change over the years. Racingcars didn't have seatbelts because they thought it was safer to be thrown from the car then be strapped in it.

They thought that because it was, most of the time, better to be thrown clear. No roll protection, no fire prevention, protection or suppression systems. Being trapped in a burning ball of metal was a very real risk. Most would rather risk dying quickly from an impact from being thrown out than die by burning to death.

The halo will save a driver from a loose wheel or from a somersaulting car going over the tub e.g. Brundle was hit by Verstappen's wheel in 1994.
https://youtu.be/llYAJGxzaiE

I just hope that we don't see an unforeseen injury/death as a result of it.