2018 French Grand Prix, Le Castellet, June 22-24

[komninosm]

1 stop race?

With the lowered pit speed limit, yeah (unless rain), like every other race so far (right?).
Until they bring back refueling so there's a bigger race speed increase from more pit-stops and change tracks (pit exit and pit entry) so there is less time lost, we're stuck to 1 usually. Maybe even drop the artificial need to use 2 different types of tires and they would be more tempted to use 2 pits for Soft/Soft/Soft stints instead of Soft/Hard stints and 1 pit-stop as usual.
Seriously, this --- does not require much thinking...

I agree on the subject refuelling. It is a genuine safety concern, but, it brings in a few true pace differentiators
- Due to the fuel load weight of cars will vary (at least, not all cars will be in the same weight bracket at a given point in a race)
- Cars that favour lower end of weight limit can choose to run 3 or 4 low fuel stints and still be faster than a 1 stopping teams
- But, more than anything, teams will NOT have the option of extending a stint to shadow a competitor (teams commit to maximum stint length at each pit stop) - thus, no incentive for saving tires (or should I say, less incentive for saving tires -- because, running slower to a delta will still help engine life).

About dropping the 2 compound rule, it could easily backfire (unless, rules force a minimum number of pit-stops). In this age of running a full season with just 3 PUs, teams might decide driving slow and not stopping would be ideal for the engine life

Yeah, you would have to make sure the tires don't last the entire race, or are too slow if they do. Having refueling would also allow tire manufacturers to create tires that are able to give better performance without overheating above certain weight ranges and being cold under weight. Yes, tires would also have to change, but bringing refueling back is the first step to make pitting more appealing.
It's not even that dangerous. How many people have been injured by refueling lately? How many have been injured by hasty pitstops and escaping tires?
Make the tires more linear in performance, make the pit entry and exit faster (or cut more track) and add refueling and you're good to go. Also make the cars smaller while you're at it for good measure.

[MtthsMlw]

Looks like a wet quali and maybe wet race tomorrow. Possible thunderstorms.

I have it as dry today but 70% chance of rain tomorrow in the race.

[mani517]

- it's a one stopper (most likely) because it's a one stopper not because of pitlane speed limit

- not refueling again. It's the same type of good old times nostalgia that brought tyres lasting forever and one stop GPs which were supposed to allow pushing 100% and great racing.
A. Different fuel Q and fuel corrected pole nonsense
B. Easier to manipulate teammates battles
C. Everyone knows what everyone else is doing (not audience), everyone is doing the same, outcame is known, except for rare variations in pitstop numbers (although I gurantee it would look differently in modern F1).
D. It doesn't add anything to proper racing except for drivers in their own separated stint/car bubbles and some randomness of slower cars in front at the start or during pitstop window

- getting rid of the tyre types is the worst idea, in the same direction as current tyres-one stoppers, less variables - worse for the sport.
- Different tyre manufacturers? A. the usual, special treatment, equal and more equal (think tyre testing for only 3 top teams last year but x10) B. Current engines type of consequences, someone getting it right

Anyway let's go back to current and less controversial topic like special tyres :
- I think it's the opposite, it's the evil standard tyres that don't allow the quickest cars to be the quickest and add randomness (~RB '12 tyre arguments).
- Special tyres like hypersofts are the real problem, they help teams that get the most out of them (RB) to gain unfair advantage despite being overall slower by lowering the degradation (~RB '12 arguments).

Sorry for dragging the discussion back to controversial refuelling topic --

A. Why would bringing back refuelling should mean going back to old refuelling time Quali format? I think, current quali-format is neat and F1 can introduce refuelling only in the races (it is just matter of getting regulations right, but, this is F1, so, may be a difficult ask).
B. Easier to manipulate teammate battles (unless F1 demand a free-racing between teammates a.k.a ban on team orders, this shouldn't be a problem -- teams are allowed to manipulate teammate battles even now, refuelling will give them a subtle way of doing it)
C. I assume, you mean, each team would know what its competitors are doing by guessing the amount of fuel that goes into the car from the time it took for refuelling - it is a possibility, but, if the first stint fuel load is made unpredictable, then, guessing game can be interesting (teams will have to react to their competitors time of stop and their subsequent fuel load) -- but, IMPORTANTLY, your argument exactly defines the problem with current no-refuelling situation, everyone knows everyone else's pace for the whole race, so, outcome is pretty much a known-thing all the time.
D. If F1 keeps its fuel-flow-rate regulation, all teams will burn same amount of fuel to complete a race distance -- it is just how they split the load over the various stints that'll differ, I don't see any problem with that. Cars that opt for low-fuel "bubble" will have to do more stops, so, low-fuel stints come with pit-stop penalties

P.S: I don't discount the safety side of refuelling, but, considering how F1 struggles to define the concept "racing" with the gimmicks like DRS and engineered tire degradation -- it could be a good idea to get back to the point where "overtaking was possible without the need for DRS" and "tire degradation wasn't a concern because teams were running flat-out anyways" and try to evolve (one more time) in a better way.

P.P.S: I also think, there is a better option to save cost than cutting the number of PUs per season (introduce the cost-cap already). This may not appear important, but, saving PU kills pace and the race.

[mani517]

Yeah, you would have to make sure the tires don't last the entire race, or are too slow if they do. Having refueling would also allow tire manufacturers to create tires that are able to give better performance without overheating above certain weight ranges and being cold under weight. Yes, tires would also have to change, but bringing refueling back is the first step to make pitting more appealing.
It's not even that dangerous. How many people have been injured by refueling lately? How many have been injured by hasty pitstops and escaping tires?
Make the tires more linear in performance, make the pit entry and exit faster (or cut more track) and add refueling and you're good to go. Also make the cars smaller while you're at it for good measure.

I understand your point of view about pit-stop injuries. Irrespective of what they do at the pit-stop, teams will try to do it in the minimum possible time. So, safety is concern as long as pit stops exist. Refuelling will give little more time for tire change (minimises the risk of tire change related injury), but, requires additional pit-crew and fuel handling (adding flammable to any task increases the risk of fire hazard) -- but, I would think, the sport that likes to call itself pinnacle-of-motorsport and solved the problem of lack-of-overtaking in a jiffy (sarcasm) can surely find a way to handle this?

[falonso81]

I am sure they can come up with and deploy safety measures if refuelling returns.

[mani517]

Apologies to the mods for going off-topic with refuelling there... let the French GP discussion continue. I hope, Paul Richard proves a hit (despite the access issues to the circuit and the tarmac concerns) -- F1 needs a fun race after Monaco and Canada this year (still can't believe, Montreal didn't offer a decent race).

[Fulcrum]

In addition, as has been mentioned in this thread, qualifying is unlikely to be dry. The same protagonists should remain in play (Vettel, Hamilton, Bottas, Verstappen, Ricciardo.... with Raikkonen slotting in somewhere in the first 3 rows), but random outcomes will be more likely if it is wet.

Count Ric and Bottas out if it is wet qualifying. Usual protagonists for wet would be Hamilton, Verstappen and Vettel.

Yeah, probably right on that count. Randomness could help them of course. That being said, I think Hulkenberg or Sainz would be more likely to get pole in the wet than Raikkonen.

[balintgabulya]

The issue with refuelling is even less overtakes on track. It might however allow drivers to push a little harder. I think a solution could be tires with better working range combined with a certain amount of cliff:

https://imgur.com/a/e9uX0Mk

Something like this!

[JonoNic]

Will Mclaren be hung out to dry in the wet or would the rain benefit them? I can't see that happening if their problems are traction out of low speed corners.

[Bill_Kar]

It's the first time that nobody agrees on race simulations! Usually there is a consensus about who's the fastest.

[komninosm]

It's the first time that nobody agrees on race simulations! Usually there is a consensus about who's the fastest.

Is it though? Even just from this year?

[Bill_Kar]

It's the first time that nobody agrees on race simulations! Usually there is a consensus about who's the fastest.

Is it though? Even just from this year?

I think so, yes! Even AMuS isn't clear on that matter.

I feel that it won't even matter, that is some pretty heavy rain.

[GoranF1]

Whats the weather forecast for Quali?

[Steven]

https://weather.com/weather/hourbyhour/l/FRPA0297:1:FR

In other words, qualifying might be wet

[balintgabulya]

Good call from Williams to go out for one or two laps. Would be a nice surprise if they managed Q2!