2022 Tyres Thread

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PlatinumZealot
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2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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That is a significant amount of difference if you imagine the side wall as a spring. One and a half in more worth of air/rubber spring.
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Ryar
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2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:41 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:06 pm
The thinner tyre wall will also make tyre warmup less of a science for the teams. Less rubber and less working of the wall material to generate heat. The stiffer smaller mass of rubber and standard wheels should be good for Merc.
The tyres will not have a hugely different sidewall depth (current 13”wheels use 660mm tall tyres; new 18” wheels will use 720mm tyres) - there is roughly only 35mm less sidewall depth with the new wheels/tyres.
Exactly! It's a misnomer to think the sidewall is reduced by half. With bigger wheels, it has expanded. Under load though, how much of a pain this would be for the suspension travel, remains to be seen. Heat dissipation shouldn't be as big an issue due relatively less space between the wheel and the inner area of the tyre. It could also be a a pain if the tyres are unable to keep temperature, unless the oft under performer Pirelli has managed to widen the working range of the compounds. Heat transfer from brakes could potentially be a headache as the spacing between the brakes and the rim is bigger. It would potentially mean less heat transfer from brakes to tyres, causing tyre warm up issues. Alternatively, due to larger brakes with bigger wheels, the brake performance would be much greater, inducing a lot more load to heat up. It remains to be seen how all of this is going to affect driver and car performance.
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basti313
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2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Ryar wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:45 am
Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 5:41 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:06 pm
The thinner tyre wall will also make tyre warmup less of a science for the teams. Less rubber and less working of the wall material to generate heat. The stiffer smaller mass of rubber and standard wheels should be good for Merc.
The tyres will not have a hugely different sidewall depth (current 13”wheels use 660mm tall tyres; new 18” wheels will use 720mm tyres) - there is roughly only 35mm less sidewall depth with the new wheels/tyres.
Exactly! It's a misnomer to think the sidewall is reduced by half. With bigger wheels, it has expanded. Under load though, how much of a pain this would be for the suspension travel, remains to be seen. Heat dissipation shouldn't be as big an issue due relatively less space between the wheel and the inner area of the tyre. It could also be a a pain if the tyres are unable to keep temperature, unless the oft under performer Pirelli has managed to widen the working range of the compounds. Heat transfer from brakes could potentially be a headache as the spacing between the brakes and the rim is bigger. It would potentially mean less heat transfer from brakes to tyres, causing tyre warm up issues. Alternatively, due to larger brakes with bigger wheels, the brake performance would be much greater, inducing a lot more load to heat up. It remains to be seen how all of this is going to affect driver and car performance.
I am a bit surprise this nice discussion ended in a team thread.

My 2 cents:
- Wheel heating will be 100% different. There is little to no more influence by the brakes. Things like "brake magic" to heat the front wheels will not be possible anymore. I think teams can not transfer much of the pre 22 knowledge and tricks on tire warmup to 22.
- Less mass, less volume...I fear the tires will be more diva to handle. I can not see an argument why they should not overheat quicker.
- In some years the blankets will be banned. I would be surprised if Pirelli did not work into this direction and worked already on the sidewall of the tire to prepare for this. That should make it a bit less sensitive to lower temps, but as above...I fear the issue is when you stress the tire.

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Stu wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:21 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:16 pm
ringo wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:06 pm

That's what I like about Ferrari. They know how to bring the intrigue pre season. I am really looking forward to that car. They say 2017 is their inspiration, knowing they can challenge the top team with being very aggressive with design and innovation.
Mercedes I know will be very strong, they know how to look on themselves and improve. Tyre warm up may still remain their weakness, but with ground effect cars that may just dissapear.
Aslo BBS wheels will be the standard wheel for F-1. No more custom tyre warmup wheels from the other teams it appears. Just 1 wheel. Maybe BBS will offer some different styles to break up the monotony.
I don't like them switching to one supplier, even if we don't see those wheels on road cars, that kind of research may trickle down into some other industry.
It really doesn’t matter much what they look like, there will be full wheel covers, maybe with LED’s
It's not about what they look like, it's the specific designs and research into heat transfer that may be useful somewhere else. Now it's just a standard wheel with nothing of interest to it.
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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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We really are off-topic here (should be in 2022 tyre thread???), heat transfer will NOT be possible, the brake ‘drums’ have to be fully enclosed and may only vent in towards the chassis.
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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:31 am
We really are off-topic here (should be in 2022 tyre thread???), heat transfer will NOT be possible, the brake ‘drums’ have to be fully enclosed and may only vent in towards the chassis.
Probably off topic, my point was more that it's sad another part has been made spec, not whether its not possible, or they will be hidden behind a cover. I'll stop there so we can get back on topic.
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Stu
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
That is a significant amount of difference if you imagine the side wall as a spring. One and a half in more worth of air/rubber spring.
The ‘spring’ of the tyres is controlled by a combination of sidewall depth, tyre pressure & tyre volume. There is (approximately) a 5% reduction in volume with the new front tyres and only a 1% reduction at the rear.

This is why the Pirelli control of minimum tyre pressures has such an effect.
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:35 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
That is a significant amount of difference if you imagine the side wall as a spring. One and a half in more worth of air/rubber spring.
The ‘spring’ of the tyres is controlled by a combination of sidewall depth, tyre pressure & tyre volume. There is (approximately) a 5% reduction in volume with the new front tyres and only a 1% reduction at the rear.

This is why the Pirelli control of minimum tyre pressures has such an effect.
Out of those three factors how much of the spring rate do you suspect the volume acount for? We would have to have an idea of this before we chose a position or direction.

That said I think the reduction is significant. Because it is said that in the nineties BBS invented hollow spoke rims to get a bit more air volume because of the increased use of lower profile tyres. We know today that F1 teams use the hollow spokes design too. So this little extra volume in the spokes definitely helps them.

We can sorta estimate the volume inside the spokes versus the old tyre volume and this can sorta give an idea of how much of a relative impact, or sensitivity the 5% reduction of the new tyres will be.

I think it will be easier to manage the tyres mind you. But it will change somethings in the suspension we won't see so much as spectators.
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godlameroso
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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What are the chances that the 2022 tires are derived from the tires they provide for GT3? From the way they've been described(more consistent, less degradation) I could see it.
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Slo Poke
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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‘Brake Magic’ is not magic! It’s Mechanical Fact.

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henry
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:35 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
That is a significant amount of difference if you imagine the side wall as a spring. One and a half in more worth of air/rubber spring.
The ‘spring’ of the tyres is controlled by a combination of sidewall depth, tyre pressure & tyre volume. There is (approximately) a 5% reduction in volume with the new front tyres and only a 1% reduction at the rear.

This is why the Pirelli control of minimum tyre pressures has such an effect.
The teams pushed to have the taller sidewalls which will mean, as you say, that the spring rate of these new tyre will be very similar to the 13”. Add to that the increased mass and the removal of inerters etc., which were used to help control the relatively undamped unsprung elements, and I think we might see some problems with kerb riding and maybe some porpoising.

The rules seem to have written to explicitly make the suspension less capable. For example:
In addition, the following systems or configurations are not permitted:
a. Anyresponseofthesuspensionelementstobodyaccelerationsand/orangular acceleration of the rockers (e.g. any inerters, mass dampers, acceleration-sensitive valves in the dampers).
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Re: 2022 tyre behaviour discussion

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henry wrote:
Sat Feb 05, 2022 9:54 am
Stu wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 10:35 am
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:22 pm
That is a significant amount of difference if you imagine the side wall as a spring. One and a half in more worth of air/rubber spring.
The ‘spring’ of the tyres is controlled by a combination of sidewall depth, tyre pressure & tyre volume. There is (approximately) a 5% reduction in volume with the new front tyres and only a 1% reduction at the rear.....
The teams pushed to have the taller sidewalls which will mean, as you say, that the spring rate of these new tyre will be very similar to the 13”. Add to that the increased mass and the removal of inerters etc., which were used to help control the relatively undamped unsprung elements, and I think we might see some problems with kerb riding and maybe some porpoising.
The rules seem to have written to explicitly make the suspension less capable. For example:
In addition, the following systems or configurations are not permitted:
a. Any response of the suspension elements to body accelerations and/or angular acceleration of the rockers (e.g. any inerters, mass dampers, acceleration-sensitive valves in the dampers).
it's almost as if the teams knew what they were doing ....

if 'pushing for taller sidewalls' meant ...... losing 'only' 35 mm of sectional height ......
the pneumatic rate would increase due to the reduced travel ... but .....
available compliance energy will reduce less than we might think as wheel rim diameter is geometrically helpful
so with the heavier wheel pneumatic frequency will be little changed

yes there could be tyre problems - and the tyres will still be doing part of the suspension's job

cooken
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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A major factor in all this will be how well the construction holds up for a given pressure. I'd love to be wrong, but I have a bad feeling that Pirelli yet again will have underestimated the rate of development from the teams, and we will see the same old story play out with pressures ratcheting up through the season. If so it will wreak havoc on suspension designs and tyre management.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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cooken wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:09 pm
A major factor in all this will be how well the construction holds up for a given pressure. I'd love to be wrong, but I have a bad feeling that Pirelli yet again will have underestimated the rate of development from the teams, and we will see the same old story play out with pressures ratcheting up through the season. If so it will wreak havoc on suspension designs and tyre management.
That will depend on whose currently leading the time sheet, I'm afraid.

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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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cooken wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:09 pm
I'd love to be wrong, but I have a bad feeling that Pirelli yet again will have underestimated the rate of development from the teams, and we will see the same old story play out with pressures ratcheting up through the season.
There's always a first, maybe Pirelli won't miscalculate for once.