2022 Tyres Thread

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Slo Poke
Slo Poke
3
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

Airshifter wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:41 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
As for you Basti313 you did at least have the manners to include the word Please in your request.

So! Brake Magic...
Back in early two thousand thirteen, Mercedes were as busy as you like destroying the rubber on the rear axle of their car. During which time the acquisition of Pole positions was a basic normality, which other teams didn’t seem to mind too much about because two or three laps into the actual race their cars overheated the rear tyres and they became easily passable. So far! We are all in agreement, right. Now Mercedes Brackely, I hate to have to admit, are not fools so I took it for granted that the rear wheels were attached to the car in a right and correct way and what with Hamilton being, at that point in time, a driver I’d cathartically chosen to assist along since the death of my Mother, I sat to give the Mercedes problem some thought. That decision led to a letter being sent in to Brackely explaining what was happening. That happened about a week and a half before the Barcelona race, after which Mercedes hung around afterwards and conducted the so-called illegal tyre test. It’s widely referred to as that but in actual fact it was an engine test. One car would have been fitted with an adapted engine to burn oil and the other car would have been their normal race engine. As advised the tyre condition on the adapted engine, obviously I’d say, displayed much improved tyre wear characteristics. Hence the saga of oil burning. Some teams quite frankly didn’t understand what they were doing, Ferrari being one such team at the time, whilst RedBull failed to even bother themselves with it. In fact RedBull only learnt what was what during 2021 as they openly admitted as much.
So anyway! Oil burning simply slows the burn or detonation time down and as such the crankshaft has just slightly more time to move sideways away from the line of decent of the piston above it. As it then reaches the three o’clock position it becomes more aligned with the speed of the descending piston, which in itself marks the end of a torque-spike. That torque-spike is then followed by five more as regular as clockwork, which leads to a buildup or culmination of heat on the surface of the tyre tread. (Without the letter to Brackely Mercedes were on the brink of having the mat being pulled from beneath them, or so I believe.)
Actual Brake Magic itself is merely the transmission of rotational vibration caused by the above, being transmitted through the chassis to the front wheels, or contact patch to be exact. Additives are used these days instead of oil and I very strongly believe the so-called sexy bulges are how these additives are curtailed for brake magic benefit and induced to the engine for tyre preservation purposes during the race.
Obviously I don’t know the exact details of how things are done as I’ve not been anywhere near RedBull or Mercedes and they haven’t been anywhere, in any shape or form, near me.

I Sincerely hope that helps anyone that cares to read it. At the very least, it’s something to mock, sneer and jeer at or perhaps ridicule or maybe even plagiarise.

TTFN
Show your stating that a change in the engine burn characteristics is what heats the tires through the vibration transmission through the car?
Basically yes! Coupled of course to the simple geometry that resides below the detonation at TDC, or thereabouts. All detonations are measured in distance per second, confined or not. With the brakes applied the front contact patches react to the vibration and produce heat through agitation. The driver doesn’t feel anything, which is likely why Russell complained brake magic wasn’t working, Bahrain.

PhillipM
PhillipM
329
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

#-o

yes, that why the brake balance is shifted to the front when brake magic is switched on :wtf:

Slo Poke
Slo Poke
3
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

PhillipM wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:51 pm
#-o

yes, that why the brake balance is shifted to the front when brake magic is switched on :wtf:
Now that is something I was not aware of PhillipM but it’s bang on.

PhillipM
PhillipM
329
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

Oh I wasn't endorsing your theory there at all. I was contravening it, the drivers can definately feel when brake magic is on, the balance changes. Ask Lewis.

I'm not sure if you actually believe what you wrote or you're on a wind-up atm tbfh :wtf:

Slo Poke
Slo Poke
3
Joined: Thu Apr 11, 2019 11:14 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

You fella, are absolutely hilarious! TBFH.

theblackangus
theblackangus
6
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:03 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
As for you Basti313 you did at least have the manners to include the word Please in your request.

So! Brake Magic...
Back in early two thousand thirteen, Mercedes were as busy as you like destroying the rubber on the rear axle of their car. During which time the acquisition of Pole positions was a basic normality, which other teams didn’t seem to mind too much about because two or three laps into the actual race their cars overheated the rear tyres and they became easily passable. So far! We are all in agreement, right. Now Mercedes Brackely, I hate to have to admit, are not fools so I took it for granted that the rear wheels were attached to the car in a right and correct way and what with Hamilton being, at that point in time, a driver I’d cathartically chosen to assist along since the death of my Mother, I sat to give the Mercedes problem some thought. That decision led to a letter being sent in to Brackely explaining what was happening. That happened about a week and a half before the Barcelona race, after which Mercedes hung around afterwards and conducted the so-called illegal tyre test. It’s widely referred to as that but in actual fact it was an engine test. One car would have been fitted with an adapted engine to burn oil and the other car would have been their normal race engine. As advised the tyre condition on the adapted engine, obviously I’d say, displayed much improved tyre wear characteristics. Hence the saga of oil burning. Some teams quite frankly didn’t understand what they were doing, Ferrari being one such team at the time, whilst RedBull failed to even bother themselves with it. In fact RedBull only learnt what was what during 2021 as they openly admitted as much.
So anyway! Oil burning simply slows the burn or detonation time down and as such the crankshaft has just slightly more time to move sideways away from the line of decent of the piston above it. As it then reaches the three o’clock position it becomes more aligned with the speed of the descending piston, which in itself marks the end of a torque-spike. That torque-spike is then followed by five more as regular as clockwork, which leads to a buildup or culmination of heat on the surface of the tyre tread. (Without the letter to Brackely Mercedes were on the brink of having the mat being pulled from beneath them, or so I believe.)
Actual Brake Magic itself is merely the transmission of rotational vibration caused by the above, being transmitted through the chassis to the front wheels, or contact patch to be exact. Additives are used these days instead of oil and I very strongly believe the so-called sexy bulges are how these additives are curtailed for brake magic benefit and induced to the engine for tyre preservation purposes during the race.
Obviously I don’t know the exact details of how things are done as I’ve not been anywhere near RedBull or Mercedes and they haven’t been anywhere, in any shape or form, near me.

I Sincerely hope that helps anyone that cares to read it. At the very least, it’s something to mock, sneer and jeer at or perhaps ridicule or maybe even plagiarise.

TTFN
If you wanted this effect, why wouldn't you just change the timing slightly to align the combustion with where you wanted it to have the effect on the piston?
Also everything in the engine is so tightly set how would you be inducing any significant vibration that is transmitting all the way through the suspension to the front tires?
The vibration would have to be severe enough that it would be able to make it though the whole spring/damping setup.
I would imagine would have to be massive enough to visually see it happening.

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Airshifter
10
Joined: Sat Feb 01, 2020 2:20 pm

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:42 pm
Airshifter wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:41 pm
Slo Poke wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 4:48 pm
BassVirolla:
Basti313:

BassVirolla you’ve made old Slo Poke feel like an admonished child, whatever were you thinking asking for goodies in such a way?
As for you Basti313 you did at least have the manners to include the word Please in your request.

So! Brake Magic...
Back in early two thousand thirteen, Mercedes were as busy as you like destroying the rubber on the rear axle of their car. During which time the acquisition of Pole positions was a basic normality, which other teams didn’t seem to mind too much about because two or three laps into the actual race their cars overheated the rear tyres and they became easily passable. So far! We are all in agreement, right. Now Mercedes Brackely, I hate to have to admit, are not fools so I took it for granted that the rear wheels were attached to the car in a right and correct way and what with Hamilton being, at that point in time, a driver I’d cathartically chosen to assist along since the death of my Mother, I sat to give the Mercedes problem some thought. That decision led to a letter being sent in to Brackely explaining what was happening. That happened about a week and a half before the Barcelona race, after which Mercedes hung around afterwards and conducted the so-called illegal tyre test. It’s widely referred to as that but in actual fact it was an engine test. One car would have been fitted with an adapted engine to burn oil and the other car would have been their normal race engine. As advised the tyre condition on the adapted engine, obviously I’d say, displayed much improved tyre wear characteristics. Hence the saga of oil burning. Some teams quite frankly didn’t understand what they were doing, Ferrari being one such team at the time, whilst RedBull failed to even bother themselves with it. In fact RedBull only learnt what was what during 2021 as they openly admitted as much.
So anyway! Oil burning simply slows the burn or detonation time down and as such the crankshaft has just slightly more time to move sideways away from the line of decent of the piston above it. As it then reaches the three o’clock position it becomes more aligned with the speed of the descending piston, which in itself marks the end of a torque-spike. That torque-spike is then followed by five more as regular as clockwork, which leads to a buildup or culmination of heat on the surface of the tyre tread. (Without the letter to Brackely Mercedes were on the brink of having the mat being pulled from beneath them, or so I believe.)
Actual Brake Magic itself is merely the transmission of rotational vibration caused by the above, being transmitted through the chassis to the front wheels, or contact patch to be exact. Additives are used these days instead of oil and I very strongly believe the so-called sexy bulges are how these additives are curtailed for brake magic benefit and induced to the engine for tyre preservation purposes during the race.
Obviously I don’t know the exact details of how things are done as I’ve not been anywhere near RedBull or Mercedes and they haven’t been anywhere, in any shape or form, near me.

I Sincerely hope that helps anyone that cares to read it. At the very least, it’s something to mock, sneer and jeer at or perhaps ridicule or maybe even plagiarise.

TTFN
Show your stating that a change in the engine burn characteristics is what heats the tires through the vibration transmission through the car?
Basically yes! Coupled of course to the simple geometry that resides below the detonation at TDC, or thereabouts. All detonations are measured in distance per second, confined or not. With the brakes applied the front contact patches react to the vibration and produce heat through agitation. The driver doesn’t feel anything, which is likely why Russell complained brake magic wasn’t working, Bahrain.
It seems to me that such a system would be much more simplistic to use if it could in fact help with tire temps. Essentially changing engine timing alone could alter the harmonics through the car, and would require no need to alter fuels used.

Though it's not beyond the realm of F1 to do very complex things with little return, I've never seen any indication that such a system has existed. I suspect that the simple change of brake bias and brake use is the primary driver to the "brake magic" system, and will remain so.

PhillipM
PhillipM
329
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 2:18 pm
Location: Over the road from Boothy...

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Airshifter wrote:
Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:42 pm
I suspect that the simple change of brake bias and brake use is the primary driver to the "brake magic" system, and will remain so.
yep, it drives the MGU-K against the rear brakes, shifting the balance forwards to heat the fronts while still keeping the heat output at the rear warming the rear tyres.

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ringo
204
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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Notice in 2022 with 18 inch tyres the brakes have these big ducting around then. What are the purpose of these ducts?
They seem to be directing hot or cool air inti the rim.
For Sure!!

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djos
100
Joined: Fri May 19, 2006 5:09 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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ringo wrote:
Fri Mar 18, 2022 5:39 am
Notice in 2022 with 18 inch tyres the brakes have these big ducting around then. What are the purpose of these ducts?
They seem to be directing hot or cool air inti the rim.
They aren't allowed to vent air from the brakes out through the rim like they used to, the air has to loop back out the inside of the wheel - hence the big "doughnut" style collectors around the disc.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

johnny comelately
johnny comelately
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Joined: Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:55 pm
Location: Australia

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2019/06/fl ... ffect.html
highly informative and well worth the read imho.
Extract:
'High-performance' racing tyres, of course, are something of a world of their own, and tend to use carbon-black as a filler in high concentrations because it increases hysteresis (i.e., viscous dissipation) and grip. One can find statements in the academic literature such as the following:

"For a typical rubber compound, roughly half of the energy dissipation during cyclic deformation can be ascribed to the agglomerated filler, the rest coming from [rubber polymer] chain ends and internal friction [of polymer network chains]," (Ulmer, Hergenrother and Lawson, 1988, 'Hysteresis Contributions in Carbon Black-filled rubbers containing conventional and tin end-modified polymers').

Given the higher concentration of filler in a racing tyre, one might expect more than half of the energy dissipation, and therefore the frictional grip, to come from the agglomerated filler.

And now comes the interesting bit. Filled rubber compounds suffer from the 'Payne effect'. This is typically defined by the variation in both the storage modulus, and the loss modulus (or tan-delta) of the tyre when it is subjected to a strain-sweep under cyclic loading conditions. (The storage modulus is related to the elasticity or stiffness of the material, and the loss modulus is related to the viscous dissipation).

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PlatinumZealot
509
Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:45 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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So Adrian Newey confirms that these cars are way more front tyre-imited limited than the cars of the previous regulation.
🖐️✌️☝️👀👌

====Zen level====
|||||||<@>||^||<@>|||||||

GrizzleBoy
GrizzleBoy
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:06 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm
So Adrian Newey confirms that these cars are way more front tyre-imited limited than the cars of the previous regulation.
Wonder why that would be.

Maybe just how difficult it is to get these large, heavy cars with bigger wheels to actually slow down or change direction puts a lot of strain on front tyre compound?

Mike_s
Mike_s
5
Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2021 11:43 am

Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

Post

johnny comelately wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 9:42 am
http://mccabism.blogspot.com/2019/06/fl ... ffect.html
highly informative and well worth the read imho.
Extract:
'High-performance' racing tyres, of course, are something of a world of their own, and tend to use carbon-black as a filler in high concentrations because it increases hysteresis (i.e., viscous dissipation) and grip. One can find statements in the academic literature such as the following:

"For a typical rubber compound, roughly half of the energy dissipation during cyclic deformation can be ascribed to the agglomerated filler, the rest coming from [rubber polymer] chain ends and internal friction [of polymer network chains]," (Ulmer, Hergenrother and Lawson, 1988, 'Hysteresis Contributions in Carbon Black-filled rubbers containing conventional and tin end-modified polymers').

Given the higher concentration of filler in a racing tyre, one might expect more than half of the energy dissipation, and therefore the frictional grip, to come from the agglomerated filler.

And now comes the interesting bit. Filled rubber compounds suffer from the 'Payne effect'. This is typically defined by the variation in both the storage modulus, and the loss modulus (or tan-delta) of the tyre when it is subjected to a strain-sweep under cyclic loading conditions. (The storage modulus is related to the elasticity or stiffness of the material, and the loss modulus is related to the viscous dissipation).
Obviously there is a lot to unpack here, I offer my 2 cents on some of it;
The comment about 'half the energy dissipation' is a little oversimplified; rubber compounds are highly viscoelastic and also thermoplastic, the relative proportions of storage and loss modulus vary, as does the complex shear modulus, depending upon the temperature and loading conditions. In general terms, the material will become more elastic as the loading time and temperature decreases, and correspondingly the viscous behaviour will increase as the loading time and temperature increase. Moreover, as the temperature of the tyre compound increases, the complex modulus decreases; so, for a given loading, there will be a greater strain in the compound. - this can lead to the 'death spiral', with tyre performance dropping and dropping further as the tyre overheats. At a certain moment the compound will start to go non-linear and graining will set in - this is where we see the compound scrubbing across the surface of the tyre.
I've done some rheological work on F1 tyre compounds and looked at the changes in modulus and visco-elastic behaviour over time and temperature.
It is more complicated still, the compound contains a resin and using differential scanning calorimetry, there are some phase changes that take place with changes in temperature - at least in part, this can also lead to changes in the tyre behaviour on a 'hot lap', the phase transitions do return back to their original behaviour, but not for a period of time, hence we see in track runs that they need to back off for a while to regain performance.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2022 Tyres Thread

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
Fri May 06, 2022 12:19 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 2:43 pm
So Adrian Newey confirms that these cars are way more front tyre-imited limited than the cars of the previous regulation.
Wonder why that would be.

Maybe just how difficult it is to get these large, heavy cars with bigger wheels to actually slow down or change direction puts a lot of strain on front tyre compound?
Simpler and more restricted front wings perhaps?