2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

This forum contains threads to discuss teams themselves. Anything not technical about the cars, including restructuring, performances etc belongs here.
User avatar
ME4ME
79
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

It's not unusual for teams to have passed the FIA crash test by this time a year. If i recall correctly Sauber did it in december last season (so effectively december 2017). But it's good news none the less.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

just a few posts above you can see the truckload ToroRosso got from RedBull. the answer is pretty obvious.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

User avatar
ME4ME
79
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:37 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

Manoah2u wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:19 pm
just a few posts above you can see the truckload ToroRosso got from RedBull. the answer is pretty obvious.
The answer to what exactly? Because if you mean the Red Bull RB14 tub - Toro Rosso isn't allowed to use it.

Manoah2u
Manoah2u
61
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

having redbull parts obviously means they have less to develop or put attention to, which thus means they can bring their attention to the stuff they can't use, like indeed, the rb14tub. if 'practically' that is one of the few things they have to build in-house, they're done pretty fast. all the other teams have much more to 'develop' so making use of the time available is offcourse priority number one.
well it seemed pretty obvious to me atleast.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

User avatar
godlameroso
309
Joined: Sat Jan 16, 2010 8:27 pm
Location: Miami FL

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

The Toro Rosso is going to be a year old Red Bull chassis adapted to use the Honda power unit, and the Red Bull chassis will be the best most developed chassis and engine integration possible between all entities involved. The Toro Rosso will probably have top 10 performance, but will be used as a rolling test bed to accelerate the team development.
Saishū kōnā

restless
restless
18
Joined: Tue May 10, 2016 8:12 am

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

That doesn't make sense - the different chassis part.
For RB best case is when TR is on same chassis - even if less developed or testing different directions

Capharol
Capharol
21
Joined: Sun Nov 04, 2018 4:06 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

restless wrote:
Sun Jan 20, 2019 9:18 am
That doesn't make sense - the different chassis part.
For RB best case is when TR is on same chassis - even if less developed or testing different directions
it make sense because there are rules that you can't share all the parts with another team, meaning you are not allowed to copy a car 1:1

User avatar
nevill3
16
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

Each team must have their own chassis, and they are not allowed to use a competitors chassis
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

User avatar
HPD
198
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 3:06 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

They have 3 trucks of RB14 to play. But they were the first to pass the crash test.
This is going to be a Frankenstein :lol:

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

nevill3 wrote:
Mon Jan 21, 2019 11:16 pm
Each team must have their own chassis, and they are not allowed to use a competitors chassis
Is that a competitors chassis, or current chassis? Could they for example build a duplicate of last years RBR at their own plant as RBR are not using the same unit. It is made by them to a design previously used, much the same way a design concept would move if the designer changed teams.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
nevill3
16
Joined: Tue Feb 11, 2014 8:31 pm
Location: Monaco

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

This apendix 6 is from last years regulations just to help us all understand just what Red Bull and Torro Rosso can use this year....
The Bold bits are the important bits that I highlighted

APPENDIX 6
1. A competitor shall, in respect of the Listed Parts to be used in its cars in Formula One, only use
Listed Parts which are designed by it.


2. The obligation to design and use Listed Parts shall not prevent a competitor from Outsourcing
the design and/or manufacture of any Listed Parts to a third party (including an Associate of
such competitor) provided that :
a) It retains the exclusive right to use the Listed Parts in Formula One so long as it
competes in Formula One.
b) In the case of the Outsourcing of manufacture such third party shall not be a
competitor.

c) In the case of the Outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a
party that directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor.

d) If part of an Outsourcing arrangement involves aerodynamic testing by a third party,
this must be carried out and reported in accordance with Appendix 8 to these Sporting
Regulations. For the avoidance of doubt, any related Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing
and Restricted CFD Simulations must take place in the wind tunnel nominated by the
relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 1.5 of Appendix 8 or using the CFD
hardware nominated by the relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 2.5 of
Appendix 8. Any such Testing or Simulations will be taken into account when assessing
the relevant competitor’s compliance with the usage limits defined in Section 3 of
Appendix 8.

3. a) A competitor may use non-Listed Parts designed by another competitor, if this is the
case any aerodynamic testing related to the design of such Parts must be carried out
and reported only by the competitor designing them in accordance with Appendix 8 to
these Sporting Regulations.
b) In the case of a competitor Outsourcing the design of non-Listed Parts to a third party
that is not a competitor, and such arrangement involves aerodynamic testing, this must
be carried out and reported in accordance with Appendix 8 to these Sporting
Regulations. For the avoidance of doubt, any related Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing
and/or Restricted CFD Simulations must take place in the wind tunnel nominated by the
relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 1.5 of Appendix 8 or using the CFD
hardware nominated by the relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 2.5 of
Appendix 8. Any such Testing or Simulations will be taken into account when assessing
the relevant competitor’s compliance with the usage limits defined in Section 3 of
Appendix 8.

4. No competitor shall be entitled :
a) To pass on or receive any information on Listed Parts (including but not limited to data,
designs or drawings) directly to or from another competitor or via an external entity or
third party.
b) To receive or supply consultancy or any other kind of services from or to another
competitor directly or via an external entity or third party in relation to Listed Parts.


5. Any information on non-Listed Parts passed on or received by a competitor or any consultancy
or any other kind of services involving a competitor in relation to non-Listed Parts shall be
strictly limited to the designs or drawings necessary for the integration of the non-Listed Parts
into the design of the car and/or the data necessary for the correct operation of the nonListed Parts on the car.
2018 F1 Sporting Regulations 52/70 7 June 2018

6. No competitor may use movement of personnel (whether employee, consultant, contractor,
secondee or any other type of permanent or temporary personnel) with another competitor,
either directly or via an external entity, for the purpose of circumventing the requirements of
this Appendix.

7. Any reference to any competitor shall include any Associate of such competitor and any
external entity working on behalf of a competitor or for its own purposes and subsequently
providing the results of its work to a competitor.

8. An “Associate” means :
a) Any person (including any corporate or unincorporated body) in which such party
directly or indirectly :
(i) Owns share capital or business assets; or
(ii) Has the power to exercise voting rights; or
(iii) Has the power to appoint members of the supervisory board, board of directors
or bodies legally representing such a firm or body corporate or unincorporated;
or
(iv) Has the right to manage the business of such firm or body corporate or
unincorporated body; or
b) Its controller (where controller means any person who directly or indirectly has in or
over any party the rights or powers listed in sub-clause (a) of the definition of
Associate); or
c) Any person (including any corporate or unincorporated body) in which its controller
directly or indirectly has the right or powers listed in sub-clause (a) above; or
d) Any agent, contractor (or sub-contractor) or any other person (including any corporate
or unincorporated body) which is set up or used by a competitor to circumvent the
requirements of this Appendix.
9. “Outsourcing” means to procure goods or services under contract with an outside supplier.

2018 F1 Sporting Regulations 53/70 7 June 2018

LISTED PARTS
Survival cell as defined in Article 1.14 of the F1 Technical Regulations (with the exception of a closing
panel for the purpose of accessing the ES)

Front impact structure as regulated by Article 15.5.6 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Roll structures as regulated by Article 15.2 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Bodywork as defined in Article 1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations and regulated by Article 3 of the
F1 Technical Regulations with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed
bodywork geometries
Sent from my Commodore PET in 1978

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

nevill3 wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:43 pm
This apendix 6 is from last years regulations just to help us all understand just what Red Bull and Torro Rosso can use this year....
The Bold bits are the important bits that I highlighted

APPENDIX 6
1. A competitor shall, in respect of the Listed Parts to be used in its cars in Formula One, only use
Listed Parts which are designed by it.


2. The obligation to design and use Listed Parts shall not prevent a competitor from Outsourcing
the design and/or manufacture of any Listed Parts to a third party (including an Associate of
such competitor) provided that :
a) It retains the exclusive right to use the Listed Parts in Formula One so long as it
competes in Formula One.
b) In the case of the Outsourcing of manufacture such third party shall not be a
competitor.

c) In the case of the Outsourcing of design, such third party shall not be a competitor or a
party that directly or indirectly designs Listed Parts for any competitor.

d) If part of an Outsourcing arrangement involves aerodynamic testing by a third party,
this must be carried out and reported in accordance with Appendix 8 to these Sporting
Regulations. For the avoidance of doubt, any related Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing
and Restricted CFD Simulations must take place in the wind tunnel nominated by the
relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 1.5 of Appendix 8 or using the CFD
hardware nominated by the relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 2.5 of
Appendix 8. Any such Testing or Simulations will be taken into account when assessing
the relevant competitor’s compliance with the usage limits defined in Section 3 of
Appendix 8.

3. a) A competitor may use non-Listed Parts designed by another competitor, if this is the
case any aerodynamic testing related to the design of such Parts must be carried out
and reported only by the competitor designing them in accordance with Appendix 8 to
these Sporting Regulations.
b) In the case of a competitor Outsourcing the design of non-Listed Parts to a third party
that is not a competitor, and such arrangement involves aerodynamic testing, this must
be carried out and reported in accordance with Appendix 8 to these Sporting
Regulations. For the avoidance of doubt, any related Restricted Wind Tunnel Testing
and/or Restricted CFD Simulations must take place in the wind tunnel nominated by the
relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 1.5 of Appendix 8 or using the CFD
hardware nominated by the relevant competitor in accordance with Paragraph 2.5 of
Appendix 8. Any such Testing or Simulations will be taken into account when assessing
the relevant competitor’s compliance with the usage limits defined in Section 3 of
Appendix 8.

4. No competitor shall be entitled :
a) To pass on or receive any information on Listed Parts (including but not limited to data,
designs or drawings) directly to or from another competitor or via an external entity or
third party.
b) To receive or supply consultancy or any other kind of services from or to another
competitor directly or via an external entity or third party in relation to Listed Parts.


5. Any information on non-Listed Parts passed on or received by a competitor or any consultancy
or any other kind of services involving a competitor in relation to non-Listed Parts shall be
strictly limited to the designs or drawings necessary for the integration of the non-Listed Parts
into the design of the car and/or the data necessary for the correct operation of the nonListed Parts on the car.
2018 F1 Sporting Regulations 52/70 7 June 2018

6. No competitor may use movement of personnel (whether employee, consultant, contractor,
secondee or any other type of permanent or temporary personnel) with another competitor,
either directly or via an external entity, for the purpose of circumventing the requirements of
this Appendix.

7. Any reference to any competitor shall include any Associate of such competitor and any
external entity working on behalf of a competitor or for its own purposes and subsequently
providing the results of its work to a competitor.

8. An “Associate” means :
a) Any person (including any corporate or unincorporated body) in which such party
directly or indirectly :
(i) Owns share capital or business assets; or
(ii) Has the power to exercise voting rights; or
(iii) Has the power to appoint members of the supervisory board, board of directors
or bodies legally representing such a firm or body corporate or unincorporated;
or
(iv) Has the right to manage the business of such firm or body corporate or
unincorporated body; or
b) Its controller (where controller means any person who directly or indirectly has in or
over any party the rights or powers listed in sub-clause (a) of the definition of
Associate); or
c) Any person (including any corporate or unincorporated body) in which its controller
directly or indirectly has the right or powers listed in sub-clause (a) above; or
d) Any agent, contractor (or sub-contractor) or any other person (including any corporate
or unincorporated body) which is set up or used by a competitor to circumvent the
requirements of this Appendix.
9. “Outsourcing” means to procure goods or services under contract with an outside supplier.

2018 F1 Sporting Regulations 53/70 7 June 2018

LISTED PARTS
Survival cell as defined in Article 1.14 of the F1 Technical Regulations (with the exception of a closing
panel for the purpose of accessing the ES)

Front impact structure as regulated by Article 15.5.6 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Roll structures as regulated by Article 15.2 of the F1 Technical Regulations

Bodywork as defined in Article 1.4 of the F1 Technical Regulations and regulated by Article 3 of the
F1 Technical Regulations with the exception of airboxes, engine exhausts and any prescribed
bodywork geometries
That makes it quite clear that RBR can not design this years chassis or STR use last years then. Cheers
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
gandharva
252
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Munich

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

Of course they will not simply "clone" the RB14. But they will most likely build a car that is heavily influenced by the RB14 philosophy. Haas has shown us how to do it. I'm pretty sure TR will pull this off too. Having a few truckloads of RB14 parts lying around won't make that process harder i guess...

I'm still awaiting some sort of RB14 frankenstein from TR.

User avatar
Big Tea
99
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:57 pm

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

gandharva wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:25 pm
Of course they will not simply "clone" the RB14. But they will most likely build a car that is heavily influenced by the RB14 philosophy. Haas has shown us how to do it. I'm pretty sure TR will pull this off too. Having a few truckloads of RB14 parts lying around won't make that process harder i guess...
But, as above, str can not even use the molds to make the chassis as it is a competitor.

Then again, They could be completely separate design teams, and as they have to incorporate the allowed parts, I doubt they would diverge far.
Would they get away with sticking some blank formers in the mold and claiming it was different and made here.
I doubt it really
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

User avatar
gandharva
252
Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:19 pm
Location: Munich

Re: 2019 Scuderia Toro Rosso F1 Team - Honda

Post

Big Tea wrote:
Tue Jan 22, 2019 9:28 pm
But, as above, str can not even use the molds to make the chassis as it is a competitor.
Haas could not either! But look yourself:
Image
That's what is probably going to happen at TR too. And let's also see how this years Haas will look...