2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:50 am
Interesting.

Simone Resta comments near the end that they studied both concepts and felt the no-pod did not have as much potential.
To be fair I doubt they assessed the no pod approach with the inclusion of the mid-wing. Seems like everyone was surprised with that aspect

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:58 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:50 am
Interesting.

Simone Resta comments near the end that they studied both concepts and felt the no-pod did not have as much potential.
To be fair I doubt they assessed the no pod approach with the inclusion of the mid-wing. Seems like everyone was surprised with that aspect
Fair enough. I was surprised to see that Mercedes never changed the mid wing shape all season.

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organic
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:03 am
organic wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:58 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:50 am
Interesting.

Simone Resta comments near the end that they studied both concepts and felt the no-pod did not have as much potential.
To be fair I doubt they assessed the no pod approach with the inclusion of the mid-wing. Seems like everyone was surprised with that aspect
Fair enough. I was surprised to see that Mercedes never changed the mid wing shape all season.
Yeah I was also surprised with the lack of development there but it seemed to be in line with how most teams didn't change their mirror mounting area that much throughout the season. Maybe a costly (aerodynamically sensitive?)/ non-performance generating area to try to produce upgrades for

RB had their sidepod inlet/wing-mirror mount area separate to other parts as though it was purposefully modular; I thought there was going to be rapid development here as a result... Then it didn't change at all, all season. :lol: #-o shows what we know

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:06 am
AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 4:03 am
organic wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:58 am


To be fair I doubt they assessed the no pod approach with the inclusion of the mid-wing. Seems like everyone was surprised with that aspect
Fair enough. I was surprised to see that Mercedes never changed the mid wing shape all season.
Yeah I was also surprised with the lack of development there but it seemed to be in line with how most teams didn't change their mirror mounting area that much throughout the season. Maybe a costly (aerodynamically sensitive?)/ non-performance generating area to try to produce upgrades for

RB had their sidepod inlet/wing-mirror mount area separate to other parts as though it was purposefully modular; I thought there was going to be rapid development here as a result... Then it didn't change at all, all season. :lol: #-o shows what we know
I think all teams will upgarde them in 2023

They didn’t want to do something in 2022 that could be copied by others
What if the zero pods works better with another mid wing

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Apologies if this has been asked - also I would consult the regs but I don’t know what the correct terminology would be for my question to find an answer for myself.

Thinking of the minimum radius rules around the rear wing, is there anything in the rules which means these don’t apply when DRS is activated? Just thinking that the sides of the drs flap are at pretty much right angles to the leading edge with no radii front to side or upper/lower surfaces to side also?

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:20 pm
Apologies if this has been asked - also I would consult the regs but I don’t know what the correct terminology would be for my question to find an answer for myself.

Thinking of the minimum radius rules around the rear wing, is there anything in the rules which means these don’t apply when DRS is activated? Just thinking that the sides of the drs flap are at pretty much right angles to the leading edge with no radii front to side or upper/lower surfaces to side also?
These rules do not apply when DRS is activated, and I don't think there are any such rules for activated DRS.

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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KeiKo403 wrote:
Thu Mar 02, 2023 2:20 pm
Apologies if this has been asked - also I would consult the regs but I don’t know what the correct terminology would be for my question to find an answer for myself.

Thinking of the minimum radius rules around the rear wing, is there anything in the rules which means these don’t apply when DRS is activated? Just thinking that the sides of the drs flap are at pretty much right angles to the leading edge with no radii front to side or upper/lower surfaces to side also?
Like the fw flap the radius and angle subtention rules only apply in the design condition. The DRS rule is that opening can only go up to 85mm and a Y position of the DRS flap tip.
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organic
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... -monchaux/
Jan Monchaux is one of the best explainers in Formula 1. We spoke to Alfa's head of technology about the lessons learned from a year of ground effect cars, the pitfalls of bouncing and low spring travel. And Monchaux also asked why so many are replicating the Red Bull and how Alfa-Romeo-Sauber intends to get the reliability problems under control.
Has the issue of bouncing (porpoising) been resolved? Can you turn it off however you want? What did the rule change bring with the edges of the underbody raised by 15 millimeters?

Monchaux: In our opinion, you can never get rid of porpoising. It will always be there because it is a physical phenomenon. You can only push the moment from when it starts. Either in one direction or the other. That depends on the height. The rule change has, in our understanding, shifted the speed at which porpoising actually begins. And in the direction of higher speeds. So now, compared to last year, the whole issue is much less visible. But it's still there. It lurks. When the wind shifts a bit we see some oscillations depending on the setup. But the amplitude is significantly less than last year.
So you never get rid of the bouncing or porpoising completely. Conversely, does that mean that the increase in downforce will be finite and that the cars will automatically adapt?

Monchaux: If the regulations were stable for years, which is wishful thinking, and we add downforce X every year, the problem would relatively certainly come back more severely. The porpoising would start earlier again because then we just create so much downforce that all these vortex structures are relatively strong. 15 millimeters wouldn't be enough. That's too small a step. You would have to be 50 millimeters high for that. Then we would have time.

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic wrote:
Thu Mar 16, 2023 12:11 am
So you never get rid of the bouncing or porpoising completely. Conversely, does that mean that the increase in downforce will be finite and that the cars will automatically adapt?

Monchaux: If the regulations were stable for years, which is wishful thinking, and we add downforce X every year, the problem would relatively certainly come back more severely. The porpoising would start earlier again because then we just create so much downforce that all these vortex structures are relatively strong. 15 millimeters wouldn't be enough. That's too small a step. You would have to be 50 millimeters high for that. Then we would have time.
Kind of contradictory. Avoiding porpoising seems simple. Raise the sidewalls and the tunnel high enough, make the sidewalls rigid enough. Also prevent vortex generation at the floor edge for good measure.

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Sainz, Leclerc and Max all complained post-race after Saudi Arabia that they feel the cars are more sensitive to dirty air this year compared to 2022

Max complained about sliding in sector 1 a lot. Sainz said that their car works normally in clean air but as soon as they are following / in dirty air the performance of the car is completely out of the window; he even went on to say that it felt similar to 2021 cars in terms of how they could follow.

In the race apart from when there was a significant performance delta there were few overtakes. This was the same in Bahrain - Bahrain had the fewest overtakes seen at that track in recent years. It felt like watching previous era cars again to an extent.

Have the changes in rules for 2023 made the cars substantially more sensitive? Or is the natural development of the cars by teams generating too much outwash / contributing to dirty air. Given what Symonds/Brawn said about monitoring how teams' wakes looked when they tried to introduce questionable updates, I am inclined to believe it's more down to the 2023 changes (ie raised floor edge, higher diffuser throat)

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Max complained about sliding in sector 1 a lot. Sainz said that their car works normally in clean air but as soon as they are following / in dirty air the performance of the car is completely out of the window; he even went on to say that it felt similar to 2021 cars in terms of how they could follow.
You need to provide a reference to such statements.
organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Have the changes in rules for 2023 made the cars substantially more sensitive? Or is the natural development of the cars by teams generating too much outwash / contributing to dirty air. Given what Symonds/Brawn said about monitoring how teams' wakes looked when they tried to introduce questionable updates, I am inclined to believe it's more down to the 2023 changes (ie raised floor edge, higher diffuser throat)
With all the winglets, bits and whatnot allowed to generate vortices and turbulence, it's fortunate that it wasn't worse from the beginning.

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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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mzso wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:20 pm
organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Max complained about sliding in sector 1 a lot. Sainz said that their car works normally in clean air but as soon as they are following / in dirty air the performance of the car is completely out of the window; he even went on to say that it felt similar to 2021 cars in terms of how they could follow.
You need to provide a reference to such statements.
organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Have the changes in rules for 2023 made the cars substantially more sensitive? Or is the natural development of the cars by teams generating too much outwash / contributing to dirty air. Given what Symonds/Brawn said about monitoring how teams' wakes looked when they tried to introduce questionable updates, I am inclined to believe it's more down to the 2023 changes (ie raised floor edge, higher diffuser throat)
With all the winglets, bits and whatnot allowed to generate vortices and turbulence, it's fortunate that it wasn't worse from the beginning.
Sainz:

https://i.imgur.com/4Ybw9da.mp4

Max:
“It was not very easy to get through the field. To follow a car through the first sector was very difficult, a lot of sliding around. But once I cleared them one by one, we got into a good rhythm.
and Leclerc:
"once I got one-and-a-half seconds to Carlos, it was very difficult to get any closer than that".
Last edited by organic on Tue Mar 21, 2023 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:27 pm
mzso wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 4:20 pm
organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Max complained about sliding in sector 1 a lot. Sainz said that their car works normally in clean air but as soon as they are following / in dirty air the performance of the car is completely out of the window; he even went on to say that it felt similar to 2021 cars in terms of how they could follow.
You need to provide a reference to such statements.
organic wrote:
Mon Mar 20, 2023 3:47 pm
Have the changes in rules for 2023 made the cars substantially more sensitive? Or is the natural development of the cars by teams generating too much outwash / contributing to dirty air. Given what Symonds/Brawn said about monitoring how teams' wakes looked when they tried to introduce questionable updates, I am inclined to believe it's more down to the 2023 changes (ie raised floor edge, higher diffuser throat)
With all the winglets, bits and whatnot allowed to generate vortices and turbulence, it's fortunate that it wasn't worse from the beginning.
Sainz:

https://i.imgur.com/4Ybw9da.mp4

Max:
“It was not very easy to get through the field. To follow a car through the first sector was very difficult, a lot of sliding around. But once I cleared them one by one, we got into a good rhythm.
and Leclerc was race radio iirc
This is seriously troubling to hear. So many good things died with TD039 and the new floor edge rules.

In addition to making following worse, it's likely a large part of why Mercedes and Ferrari are nowhere right now. There concepts were likely much more sensitive to all of these changes than RB.

If you actually look at the gap between RB and Aston Martin, one could argue it's still the proper old "midfield". The problem is Mercedes and Ferrari have regressed (compared to where one expects them to be in relation to RB). It can't be coincidence that AMR have followed a RB concept and maintained what one considers to be the typical mifield gap to the leaders. It's the regression of Mercedes and Ferrari which actually makes Aston Martin stand out. Otherwise Aston would just be the 4th best team (which is the sort of level you would expect after last season).

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vorticism
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Weren't we noting closer following last year?
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organic
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Re: 2022 Aerodynamic Regulations Thread

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Last year it seemed to have improved following but drivers are not reporting the same sensation this season so far. Maybe Jeddah exasperated any issues due to its high speed flowing nature