Whitemarsh stupid comments

[mcdenife]

You have completely missed the point, but at least you conceed this year Renault is better than the Mclaren.
However to claim that this years Mclaren would be a better car if they had Alonso beggars belief. Frankly I am amazed (to say the least) anyone can make such a claim.
Its unbelievable, the fantastic lengths fans go to prove their idols superiority but would otherwise be incredulous if such a claim were made in circumstances where their judgement is not clouded.
Your reasoning for your claim being:

great development drivers (Senna, Prost...) that were able to feedback the engineers with precise development orientations...

In other words Kimi is not good developement driver and does not give good feedback otherwise the car would be better right? (an aside: Interesting how you managed to imply that like Senna/Prost, Alonso is a great develoment driver without actually saying it) Driver style is important to the dev direction however a driver can only give feedback (good or bad) on the "developement" he is given to test. That is the extent of his developement input. Or perhaps you also think that translating feedback into something useful (or not) is also down to the driver?
Direction is one thing. Approach, Translation, Philosophy is something else.

[jgredline]

Listen
Alonso is AMAZING. I am not saying otherwise. But lets be real.
If Alonso were in a Mclaren this year or Last year would he have won the world title? Would he have done better than KIMI?

I have said it many times that I don't like Renault, but I do take my hat off to them for working as a team. They are proof that it takes more than Money to succeed. It takes a team. They have the best car and one of the top 3 drivers.
As for Fisi, well what has he done against his team mate through out his history. NADA

[RH1300S]

I don't think Alonso would have definately done much better than Kimi in a Mclaren last year. Both drivers are at a very high level. Alonso has taken the extra step (probably a benefit of winning the title - it helps your mind game) and moved himself to the very top level. Kimi has yet to make that step (maybe when he gets a chmapionship under his belt.....), they were closer last year (not just in the car, but mentally). Alonso is building on the mental momentum having won last year and his team are coming with him - all are getting stronger).

Back to the original point; I think that Martin W was only saying that Alonso is special and it's good to know that talent is heading his way next year, but maybe not so great he's in a different car this year. Purely from the perspective that once you have the best of anything in your team, not only do you benefit, but your competitors DON'T benefit. I don't read for an instant that he thinks Kimi is NOT delivering this year or last.

In Kimi's defence last year and probably the year before he delivered and then some..............

[mcdenife]

RH1300s, I could not have put it better (actually, could not have put it even half as good as you did).

[dumrick]

You have completely missed the point, but at least you conceed this year Renault is better than the Mclaren.

Granted!

However to claim that this years Mclaren would be a better car if they had Alonso beggars belief.

Exactly, that is only my belief, given the way Renault has evolved since he is in the team and the way Mclaren is failing to keep a steady design and performance development since the departure of Mika.

Its unbelievable, the fantastic lengths fans go to prove their idols superiority but would otherwise be incredulous if such a claim were made in circumstances where their judgement is not clouded.

My idols in F1 are called Gilles Villeneuve, Jean Alesi and Rory Byrne, but I never thought any of them was ABSOLUTELY superior to anyone else, rather people I admired by their fresh approach of F1 engineering (the later) and racing behaviour Nothing to do with the team I support, as you see.

Driver style is important to the dev direction however a driver can only give feedback (good or bad) on the "developement" he is given to test.

I was talking about the basic design philosophy, but the quality of that feedback is very important and different from driver to driver...

[Ciro Pabón]

C'mon, Mac, don't show me your pearly white... I conceded anything you want about Kimi greatness. I already did. I drive worse than him to judge his driving.

I even love the teenager compliment by Hudson "Prudent" Hag, specially at 46...

I just said "car development is a responsability of the driver, too". The guy even has to pick a team for good or bad, and "stick his as* to it or stick it to his ...". Schumacher shines if you talk about compromise and maybe Kimi does not, but whatever you say, mac.

I don't care about the "interpretation" of Whitewhatever comments, I just grabbed the opportunity... besides I like JPM sincerity and dislike Kimi reserve a little, what can I do. Living in Bogotá helps a little...

Every time somebody asks JPM about the car he always answer "I am totally focused on this year and the development". Kimi has not made his mind about next year... I maybe wrong because I do not read everything, but I have not heard him blame himself or make himself responsable in any way for the team. I anxiously wait for your quotes.

As for car relative strength, I now post some figures for last year: you are a grown man, and Hudson a really mature one, to reach your own conclussions without prejudice :

McLaren's cars victories last year: 10
Renault's cars victories last year: 8

McLaren's pilots championships last year: exactly zero
Renault's pilots championships last year: one

Last time I checked, 10 was more than 8 and 1 more than 0.

Finally, Kimi still has to answer the question my father raised when I had the body (besides the mind) of a teenager: "if you are so smart, why are you not rich?" Let's wait for next year, as Hudson asks and give Alonso some time to "Rubens-nize" the car... I would love for Kimi to stay at McLaren to make it easier for all of us to compare if enthusiasm and patience can overcome sheer speed and coldness.

-----
Zero

Sorry, I meant

[DaveKillens]

I happen to believe Alonso is as good as claimed. He may not have the same personality as Shu, but he is every much the professional race driver as Shu was at his age. Alonso has no weaknesses. He is dedicated, focused, and disciplined. his racecraft is superb, and is consistently quick. Even his ability to get quick times on his outlap has improved and nearly equals Shu.
Ten years ago Ferari were a shambles. They had a great history, good drivers, fantastic resources, yet they could not consisteltly win, or even be competitive. Big changes happened at Ferrari, and some fantastic talent was brought in, especially Shu. He was the foundation and cornerstone to their incredible dominance in the past few years. With his professionalism and consistently quick, yet error free style, he was the benchmark for improvement.
The same goes for Alonso. He is as about a perfect driver as a team can want. he consistently quick, doesn't break cars, and handles pressure. Maybe he made a mistake by going to McLaren, but they dangled a lot of money at him, and Renault dropped the ball on that topic. But if they can ever improve, he is the person to do it, he is the one to bring winning back to McLaren.

[West]

I still think it's the engineers fault for letting Kimi down. If they know he drives agressively, they could have set up the car better for that, i.e. more radiator area or something. And that's forgetting the Mercedes engine - I don't think it takes a genius to say "keep my engine from blowing up."

As for development... everybody has their bad years... this just happens to be McLaren's bad year. They probably are feeling the effects of major aerodynamicists leaving. Both Kimi and Alonso have different driving styles, and assuming that car development is based strictly on them, their cars are going to be very different. It just happens that maybe one team's engineers do not know how to fully extract the most from their driver, and vice versa.

[mcdenife]

Ciro Wrote:

I conceded anything you want about Kimi greatness. I already did. I drive worse than him to judge his driving

That assumes my argument was because I think Kimi is great or better......dont care either way. But whether his is or not is besides the point. The point was your 'proof'

Alonso is better than Kimi. Proof: he has beaten him with a lot less money.

ciro wrote:

As for car relative strength, I now post some figures for last year: you are a grown man, and Hudson a really mature one, to reach your own conclussions without prejudice Laughing :

McLaren's cars victories last year: 10
Renault's cars victories last year: 8

McLaren's pilots championships last year: exactly zero
Renault's pilots championships last year: one

Last time I checked, 10 was more than 8 and 1 more than 0.

Not sure what u are trying to show, relevance to this year's Mclaren or your proof above.
Ciro wrote:

Finally, Kimi still has to answer the question my father raised when I had the body (besides the mind) of a teenager: "if you are so smart, why are you not rich?" Laughing Let's wait for next year, as Hudson asks and give Alonso some time to "Rubens-nize" the car... I would love for Kimi to stay at McLaren to make it easier for all of us to compare if enthusiasm and patience can overcome sheer speed and coldness.

Not really interested who is better. As long as one of them is winning for Mclaren, who cares (which incidentally coincides with MW remarks) but as you said, only time will tell, my response was based on how you managed to add 2+2 and arrive at 5.
Your father asks a very good question and theres an even better answer but give me time to work out the delivery (its late and the wine disagrees with my fingers).
Dumrick wrote:

I was talking about the basic design philosophy, but the quality of that feedback is very important and different from driver to driver...

Conclusion since the Renault is better than the Mclaren, that can ONLY mean Alonso gives better feedback?
Design philosophy, basic or otherwise, absolutely nothing to do with driver, perhaps you meant the design remit (ie direction or the why. drivers have nothing to do with the how unless he is an engineer or designer as well)

[Spencifer_Murphy]

whooops, btw guys I hope u realsed the bit in the quote box in my post was MY COMMENT. The bit outside it (above the white quote box) was the quote made by somebody else (cannot see who at this moment sorry)

[Hudsonhawk.]

If you say that Alonso is just good than what is Fisichella? One of the worst on the grid? That isn't the case for sure

yep....your right......he is only useful as a crash test dummy.

[kimi146]

when kimi drives his mclren off the limit,his engine burns out or his wheels come out
something quite crazzy thing going wid mclaren ,need to sort out their relaibitliy issues fast

[blue]

it's not kimi's fault if he's slow this year.it's the that is slow.what could a driver with a slow car?kimi's doing his best as far as he could.remember the 1st gp of the year he started 22nd but finished third(it's not about being lucky it's what you call skill and talent).
mclaren is slow this year as well as their pit-stop strategy(canadian gp).all he could do is drive the car to it's limit.so don'y blame him if he's not winning any gp this year but who knows there's still 8 gp's to go!!!! [/quote]

[NickT]

Firstly, I don't think Martin Whitmarsh was criticising or comparing his drivers he was simply commenting on Alonso's amazing performance this year, his maturity and natural tallent. This being something of a double edged sword for McLaren as Alonso is in the car of one of the competition and taking points and places from McLaren, but will be driving for McLaren in 2007.

As to driver input to development, this is critical. Leaving aside the basic chassis design for the moment, the only source of feed back for the engineer is the driver and the relative performance of the competition. All the great champions have made a significant contribution to the development of the car and some are better than others. I am not so sure the McLaren duo are as good as the Renault boys in this department, but who of us is really close enough to know for sure?

Then there is the ability to adapt and drive around problems, something Kimi seams to do better than Monty but Alonso seams to do even better, remember how he just drove around the huge amounts of understear the Renault used to have?

Finally as I have said before:

This is true but some drivers styles are definately harder on cars and tyres than others. At this level where the margines are so tight it can make all the difference. Please don't get me wrong I think Kimi is a fantastic driver, I just suspect the way he acheives his speed is harder on the car than others