[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[holeindalip]

Rumor has it merc didn’t even use the highest strat mode in qualifying, probably testing for the ban coming next week, power units will probably be ran harder in the race. Barring tire issues I doubt max will be anywhere near the mercs....

But that's totally ok, it just makes the PU's more prone to failures (God, I miss the mega-white-puff-blows).
Fix the mappings via Parc Ferme, and let the driver decide what to use when. And to spice it up, deny the pitwall to intervene with information.

Lol, but if they are not running them hard in qualy, they will be fine...

[Wynters]

FIA, RBR Mercedes used simple thinking last year to initiate Ferrari PU check. If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds. So this year we have the same case with Mercedes. Yes - they are good, but simply they are not gods and can not change simple thermodynamics. Achieving this lap times means the have to rise thermal efficiency of the engine with 5% for just an year of development wich is simply impossible.

Perhaps you could provide the downforce figures for the cars? And the transmission efficiencies? And the fuel energy conversion efficiency for each team? What about the ignition efficiency for each engine? What effect do the various oils have on reducing energy loss to friction within each engine? Perhaps you've got the wiring diagrams and performance readouts for the energy recovery systems? Or do you have the lifetime use target for each engine so we know how long each engine can survive at each power output?

I'm sure there are a hundred more factors that go into the lap time and straight speeds. But is should be easy for you to provide all of these things because it's all 'simple', right?

I'm not an engine expert (by a long stretch), but I'm pretty sure that describing every influcence on PU output as "simple" is easier to say than actually do. I suppose it's why they employ so many people to build these engines? It would be weird to spend all this money if they've already hit the technological plateau, I guess that's why Andy Cowell left. Like Alexander, he wept when he discovered that there were no more technologies to develop and that mankind would forever be unable to build a better power unit. He's probably retired into obscurity where he can contemplate wasting his life now that we've hit permanent technological perfection?

Even just the claim of...

If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds.

...requires a complete disregard of every aspect of the car, save for the engine. I pulled up the data for Styria, at random, and you know who was fastest in the speed trap was? Sainz (324.6). Who was second fastest? Giovinazzi (323.3). The Finish line? Perez (290.8 ) and Bottas (289.9). Intermediate 1 and 2? Perez, Ricciardo / Verstappen and Sainz. So I guess if Hamilton can only achieve his 'straight speeds' by cheating, I've got awful news about the whole grid...

[Wynters]

Rumor has it merc didn’t even use the highest strat mode in qualifying, probably testing for the ban coming next week, power units will probably be ran harder in the race. Barring tire issues I doubt max will be anywhere near the mercs....

But that's totally ok, it just makes the PU's more prone to failures (God, I miss the mega-white-puff-blows).
Fix the mappings via Parc Ferme, and let the driver decide what to use when. And to spice it up, deny the pitwall to intervene with information.

I find it odd that, for a team sport, so many people seem to want the team banned. In football, when a popular striker isn't scoring enough goals, there aren't any fans calling for all goalkeepers and defenders to be banned to 'spice it up' or 'level the playing field'.

Why not go all the way? Drivers should have to build their own engines, cars and tyres, and do their own pitstops too. Wouldn't be the first time.

[langedweil]

Rumor has it merc didn’t even use the highest strat mode in qualifying, probably testing for the ban coming next week, power units will probably be ran harder in the race. Barring tire issues I doubt max will be anywhere near the mercs....

But that's totally ok, it just makes the PU's more prone to failures (God, I miss the mega-white-puff-blows).
Fix the mappings via Parc Ferme, and let the driver decide what to use when. And to spice it up, deny the pitwall to intervene with information.

Lol, but if they are not running them hard in qualy, they will be fine...

True that, so there should be no issue there then ..

[langedweil]

I find it odd that, for a team sport, so many people seem to want the team banned.

One might think of it that way, but it is still very much a team sport.
However ... all this strat/mode/recovery jingle-jangle is not so much about the team, it's just coming from a realtime computer model.

Why not go all the way? Drivers should have to build their own engines, cars and tyres, and do their own pitstops too. Wouldn't be the first time.

To ridicule things further; why not allow for these models to apply these settings remotely to the car .. let's say 50 times/second ? And whilst working that out, you might as well aid the steering/brake system remotely based on the ontrack competition, pu/brake temperatures, tire wear and fuel consumption. Make it just like 10 Big Blue's that run the race with two cars each?

With everything already controlled by Parc Ferme rules, why is it so weird to add the gazillion engine-mappings to it?

[Pany]

FIA, RBR Mercedes used simple thinking last year to initiate Ferrari PU check. If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds. So this year we have the same case with Mercedes. Yes - they are good, but simply they are not gods and can not change simple thermodynamics. Achieving this lap times means the have to rise thermal efficiency of the engine with 5% for just an year of development wich is simply impossible.

Perhaps you could provide the downforce figures for the cars? And the transmission efficiencies? And the fuel energy conversion efficiency for each team? What about the ignition efficiency for each engine? What effect do the various oils have on reducing energy loss to friction within each engine? Perhaps you've got the wiring diagrams and performance readouts for the energy recovery systems? Or do you have the lifetime use target for each engine so we know how long each engine can survive at each power output?

I'm sure there are a hundred more factors that go into the lap time and straight speeds. But is should be easy for you to provide all of these things because it's all 'simple', right?

I'm not an engine expert (by a long stretch), but I'm pretty sure that describing every influcence on PU output as "simple" is easier to say than actually do. I suppose it's why they employ so many people to build these engines? It would be weird to spend all this money if they've already hit the technological plateau, I guess that's why Andy Cowell left. Like Alexander, he wept when he discovered that there were no more technologies to develop and that mankind would forever be unable to build a better power unit. He's probably retired into obscurity where he can contemplate wasting his life now that we've hit permanent technological perfection?

Even just the claim of...

If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds.

...requires a complete disregard of every aspect of the car, save for the engine. I pulled up the data for Styria, at random, and you know who was fastest in the speed trap was? Sainz (324.6). Who was second fastest? Giovinazzi (323.3). The Finish line? Perez (290.8 ) and Bottas (289.9). Intermediate 1 and 2? Perez, Ricciardo / Verstappen and Sainz. So I guess if Hamilton can only achieve his 'straight speeds' by cheating, I've got awful news about the whole grid...

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

[Moore77]

FIA, RBR Mercedes used simple thinking last year to initiate Ferrari PU check. If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds. So this year we have the same case with Mercedes. Yes - they are good, but simply they are not gods and can not change simple thermodynamics. Achieving this lap times means the have to rise thermal efficiency of the engine with 5% for just an year of development wich is simply impossible.

Perhaps you could provide the downforce figures for the cars? And the transmission efficiencies? And the fuel energy conversion efficiency for each team? What about the ignition efficiency for each engine? What effect do the various oils have on reducing energy loss to friction within each engine? Perhaps you've got the wiring diagrams and performance readouts for the energy recovery systems? Or do you have the lifetime use target for each engine so we know how long each engine can survive at each power output?

I'm sure there are a hundred more factors that go into the lap time and straight speeds. But is should be easy for you to provide all of these things because it's all 'simple', right?

I'm not an engine expert (by a long stretch), but I'm pretty sure that describing every influcence on PU output as "simple" is easier to say than actually do. I suppose it's why they employ so many people to build these engines? It would be weird to spend all this money if they've already hit the technological plateau, I guess that's why Andy Cowell left. Like Alexander, he wept when he discovered that there were no more technologies to develop and that mankind would forever be unable to build a better power unit. He's probably retired into obscurity where he can contemplate wasting his life now that we've hit permanent technological perfection?

Even just the claim of...

If you have 100kg/s maximum fuel flow and thermal efficiency around 52-53% you can not produce the amounts of energy to achieve this lap times or straight speeds.

...requires a complete disregard of every aspect of the car, save for the engine. I pulled up the data for Styria, at random, and you know who was fastest in the speed trap was? Sainz (324.6). Who was second fastest? Giovinazzi (323.3). The Finish line? Perez (290.8 ) and Bottas (289.9). Intermediate 1 and 2? Perez, Ricciardo / Verstappen and Sainz. So I guess if Hamilton can only achieve his 'straight speeds' by cheating, I've got awful news about the whole grid...

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

Yet, Mercedes managed to beat Ferrari last year, who legally or illegally, possessed the most powerful PU on the grid. Ferrari were a bit more powerful PU in 2017 and 2018 as well, more so in 2018. A high rake car, causes more drag and can't compensate for lack of pace. It's the efficiency of the rest of the car's design that can reduce the drag and compensate for lack of power.
+1 for Wynters there for that post.

[Sieper]

Yes, and this year Ferrari is midfield. So power means nothing. Point proven.

[Big Tea]

If Mercedes (or anyone else) uses something to burn together eith gasoline, fia must ban this. After that it is noy problem Q mode.
But if someone uses additional fuel they can use.with another mode too.

This is the problem. Instead of going for the sickness they are going for the symptoms.

I don't know if this was said but the reason for the simplification of the maps was that it was getting to complicated to enforce the regs that all the teams that had the same PU were getting all the same software. The verification of the maps was taking too long.

TBH, if the reasons were given for it, it may be accepted more reasonably. I know we are not involved in the racing, but without us sponsors would not pay and they would not be what they are, so 'we' are shareholders.

[Pany]

Perhaps you could provide the downforce figures for the cars? And the transmission efficiencies? And the fuel energy conversion efficiency for each team? What about the ignition efficiency for each engine? What effect do the various oils have on reducing energy loss to friction within each engine? Perhaps you've got the wiring diagrams and performance readouts for the energy recovery systems? Or do you have the lifetime use target for each engine so we know how long each engine can survive at each power output?

I'm sure there are a hundred more factors that go into the lap time and straight speeds. But is should be easy for you to provide all of these things because it's all 'simple', right?

I'm not an engine expert (by a long stretch), but I'm pretty sure that describing every influcence on PU output as "simple" is easier to say than actually do. I suppose it's why they employ so many people to build these engines? It would be weird to spend all this money if they've already hit the technological plateau, I guess that's why Andy Cowell left. Like Alexander, he wept when he discovered that there were no more technologies to develop and that mankind would forever be unable to build a better power unit. He's probably retired into obscurity where he can contemplate wasting his life now that we've hit permanent technological perfection?

Even just the claim of... ...requires a complete disregard of every aspect of the car, save for the engine. I pulled up the data for Styria, at random, and you know who was fastest in the speed trap was? Sainz (324.6). Who was second fastest? Giovinazzi (323.3). The Finish line? Perez (290.8 ) and Bottas (289.9). Intermediate 1 and 2? Perez, Ricciardo / Verstappen and Sainz. So I guess if Hamilton can only achieve his 'straight speeds' by cheating, I've got awful news about the whole grid...

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

Yet, Mercedes managed to beat Ferrari last year, who legally or illegally, possessed the most powerful PU on the grid. Ferrari were a bit more powerful PU in 2017 and 2018 as well, more so in 2018. A high rake car, causes more drag and can't compensate for lack of pace. It's the efficiency of the rest of the car's design that can reduce the drag and compensate for lack of power.
+1 for Wynters there for that post.

In my opinion thisprooves the opposite. Ferrari was winning every race with the pu trick. Once other teams found out, fiesta was over. The same thing happened when Ferrari used the twin battery trick. Once discovered, party is over

[Wynters]

To ridicule things further; why not allow for these models to apply these settings remotely to the car .. let's say 50 times/second ? And whilst working that out, you might as well aid the steering/brake system remotely based on the ontrack competition, pu/brake temperatures, tire wear and fuel consumption. Make it just like 10 Big Blue's that run the race with two cars each?

Fair point

For me, F1 is a team sport. If I have the option of either banning the driver or banning the contributions of others, I'd ban the driver.

However, suppose we banned the use of computers to calculate strategy? Or other aspects of the real-time performance? Relied more on judgement of individuals rather than computer analysis? Leave them with the same tools they have now in the car, but remove that processing power 'perfection'?

With everything already controlled by Parc Ferme rules, why is it so weird to add the gazillion engine-mappings to it?

It's also a fair question. For me, the ability to differentiate when to apply performance and the chess match between the various pit walls is as much a part of the sport as the drivers banging wheels through a corner. I appreciate that's not a universal view though.

[Wynters]

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

So why aren't all the chassis the same? Why isn't Williams amongst the top teams at Monaco (and elsewhere)? After seven years, surely all the teams should've closed the gap to to Adrian Newey?

Or, perhaps, things are quite complex and, yes, some teams have slightly better design departments than other teams. You can call them 'stupid' if you like. I'd call them 'relatively under resourced'.

[El Scorchio]

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

So why aren't all the chassis the same? Why isn't Williams amongst the top teams at Monaco (and elsewhere)? After seven years, surely all the teams should've closed the gap to to Adrian Newey?

Or, perhaps, things are quite complex and, yes, some teams have slightly better design departments than other teams. You can call them 'stupid' if you like. I'd call them 'relatively under resourced'.

Exactly. If the Merc dominance is based on their PU then why have the teams they supply not been far higher up the WCC in the past few years? Why last year did they finish 7th and 10th, behind teams using every other engine supplied in the sport? Why have Williams been at the back and miles behind for the past few years?

[Wouter]

[etusch]

Come on, after seven years PU must have similar performance. You assume all other team are stupid. Everybody knows marcedes car dominance is based on PU. Very simple. This is an engine based formula. The reason no one team is using mercedes car concept is also consequence of this. With high rake cars you hope to compensate for lack of power. It has always been like that

So why aren't all the chassis the same? Why isn't Williams amongst the top teams at Monaco (and elsewhere)? After seven years, surely all the teams should've closed the gap to to Adrian Newey?

Or, perhaps, things are quite complex and, yes, some teams have slightly better design departments than other teams. You can call them 'stupid' if you like. I'd call them 'relatively under resourced'.

Exactly. If the Merc dominance is based on their PU then why have the teams they supply not been far higher up the WCC in the past few years? Why last year did they finish 7th and 10th, behind teams using every other engine supplied in the sport? Why have Williams been at the back and miles behind for the past few years?

last race showed us small changes can change winner. So for me it is not about super merc team. I don't say mercedes is not good. I am just saying that they are not that good