[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

[zibby43]

https://motorsportz.nl/f1/honda-f1-niet ... pen-32450/

Honda F1 not planning to incur grid penalty in 2020.

They seem to be very confident of their reliability, especially with the new directive coming from Italy.

They’ve made very impressive reliability steps this year. Good story overall for them. Perseverance.

[Juzh]

Your own post has quotes from Tanabe san saying they used quali mode while Mercedes did not. So I'm asking again do you have a source that says anything to the contrary?

look dude you are wasting both our times and manipulating words
the respected trusted video guru member Juzh already confirmed mercs used strat 2 during q3 in SPA , now you say oh no they changed strat 2 and strat 3 bla bla its kinda boring you know

This is from Juzh
"Bottas was told strat2 before starting the lap. I just checked. It makes sense since he beat verstappen by only 0.01s, without strat 2 he'd be behind."
Nothing prevents them from reprogramming strat 3 to strat 2

Yes, nothing prevents them doing that, but that's as assumptious as it gets. There's zero evidence supporting it, but there's years of evidence supporting strat 2 being the most powerful mode, not least recent interview with Andy Cowel in beyond the grid.

If I were Mercedes, and I think I also had the best chassis, not running the highest mode wouldn’t make me fear losing pole, especially since I already did it in Barcelona (and had a 7+ tenths gap on a non-power sensitive circuit).

Pole yes, but Bottas -0.01s to verstappen says otherwise. Until solid evidence is shown they didnt use full beans im not buying it. Honda's quote could very well be meant towards spain's quali where they did in fact use strat 3 only. Back then people speculated they reversed strat 2 and 3 as well, just as they do now in the opposite direction.

[zibby43]

look dude you are wasting both our times and manipulating words
the respected trusted video guru member Juzh already confirmed mercs used strat 2 during q3 in SPA , now you say oh no they changed strat 2 and strat 3 bla bla its kinda boring you know

This is from Juzh
"Bottas was told strat2 before starting the lap. I just checked. It makes sense since he beat verstappen by only 0.01s, without strat 2 he'd be behind."
Nothing prevents them from reprogramming strat 3 to strat 2

Yes, nothing prevents them doing that, but that's as assumptious as it gets. There's zero evidence supporting it, but there's years of evidence supporting strat 2 being the most powerful mode, not least recent interview with Andy Cowel in beyond the grid.

If I were Mercedes, and I think I also had the best chassis, not running the highest mode wouldn’t make me fear losing pole, especially since I already did it in Barcelona (and had a 7+ tenths gap on a non-power sensitive circuit).

Pole yes, but Bottas -0.01s to verstappen says otherwise. Until solid evidence is shown they didnt use full beans im not buying it. Honda's quote could very well be meant towards spain's quali where they did in fact use strat 3 only. Back then people speculated they reversed strat 2 and 3 as well, just as they do now in the opposite direction.

Yep, I 100% agree that everything you said could be a possibility as well.

[tangodjango]

look dude you are wasting both our times and manipulating words
the respected trusted video guru member Juzh already confirmed mercs used strat 2 during q3 in SPA , now you say oh no they changed strat 2 and strat 3 bla bla its kinda boring you know

This is from Juzh
"Bottas was told strat2 before starting the lap. I just checked. It makes sense since he beat verstappen by only 0.01s, without strat 2 he'd be behind."
Nothing prevents them from reprogramming strat 3 to strat 2

Yes, nothing prevents them doing that, but that's as assumptious as it gets. There's zero evidence supporting it, but there's years of evidence supporting strat 2 being the most powerful mode, not least recent interview with Andy Cowel in beyond the grid.

If I were Mercedes, and I think I also had the best chassis, not running the highest mode wouldn’t make me fear losing pole, especially since I already did it in Barcelona (and had a 7+ tenths gap on a non-power sensitive circuit).

Pole yes, but Bottas -0.01s to verstappen says otherwise. Until solid evidence is shown they didnt use full beans im not buying it. Honda's quote could very well be meant towards spain's quali where they did in fact use strat 3 only. Back then people speculated they reversed strat 2 and 3 as well, just as they do now in the opposite direction.

By and large agree with whatever you are saying with a caveat the qualifying mode was banned 2 races ago so the years of strat 2 being the highest qualification mode aren't very relevant anymore in my personal opinion (could very well be wrong). They might be monkeying around to keep the opposition guessing. In any case Monza Q3 will be interesting.

[Revs84]

https://motorsportz.nl/f1/honda-f1-niet ... pen-32450/

Honda F1 not planning to incur grid penalty in 2020.

They seem to be very confident of their reliability, especially with the new directive coming from Italy.

They had already set this target before the season started, when the total races were still 22, so in a way I'm not surprised they're still targeting it now that 17 races have been confirmed with almost the same amount of components.

In a way I'm disappointed though. Being that Verstappen is 47 points down from Hamilton, why not unleash more power and use one more ICE, TC and MGU-H?

The only reasons I can think of is that they are quite confident with their level of power output. But even then, isn't the penalty for starting at the back of the grid in one race well worth the benefit of running more power output for the remaining 10 races?

This is just my theory, as I believe that going all out is the only chance they have of still making Verstappen the youngest WDC in history.

But surely, they must know something that I don't or am completely missing.

[Sieper]

That is likely, yes.

[Juzh]

This is from Juzh
"Bottas was told strat2 before starting the lap. I just checked. It makes sense since he beat verstappen by only 0.01s, without strat 2 he'd be behind."
Nothing prevents them from reprogramming strat 3 to strat 2

Yes, nothing prevents them doing that, but that's as assumptious as it gets. There's zero evidence supporting it, but there's years of evidence supporting strat 2 being the most powerful mode, not least recent interview with Andy Cowel in beyond the grid.

If I were Mercedes, and I think I also had the best chassis, not running the highest mode wouldn’t make me fear losing pole, especially since I already did it in Barcelona (and had a 7+ tenths gap on a non-power sensitive circuit).

Pole yes, but Bottas -0.01s to verstappen says otherwise. Until solid evidence is shown they didnt use full beans im not buying it. Honda's quote could very well be meant towards spain's quali where they did in fact use strat 3 only. Back then people speculated they reversed strat 2 and 3 as well, just as they do now in the opposite direction.

By and large agree with whatever you are saying with a caveat the qualifying mode was banned 2 races ago so the years of strat 2 being the highest qualification mode aren't very relevant anymore in my personal opinion (could very well be wrong). They might be monkeying around to keep the opposition guessing. In any case Monza Q3 will be interesting.

U wot mate? Quali mode is banned from monza onwards, nothing has changed for spain and spa. It was initially meant to come in for spa, but has been delayed to monza.

[tangodjango]

Yes, nothing prevents them doing that, but that's as assumptious as it gets. There's zero evidence supporting it, but there's years of evidence supporting strat 2 being the most powerful mode, not least recent interview with Andy Cowel in beyond the grid.


Pole yes, but Bottas -0.01s to verstappen says otherwise. Until solid evidence is shown they didnt use full beans im not buying it. Honda's quote could very well be meant towards spain's quali where they did in fact use strat 3 only. Back then people speculated they reversed strat 2 and 3 as well, just as they do now in the opposite direction.

By and large agree with whatever you are saying with a caveat the qualifying mode was banned 2 races ago so the years of strat 2 being the highest qualification mode aren't very relevant anymore in my personal opinion (could very well be wrong). They might be monkeying around to keep the opposition guessing. In any case Monza Q3 will be interesting.

U wot mate? Quali mode is banned from monza onwards, nothing has changed for spain and spa. It was initially meant to come in for spa, but has been delayed to monza.

Should have been "since the qualifying mode ban was announced 2 races ago"

[Big Tea]

TBH, even starting from the last row Max should be back in top 6 by the tyre stops and still a likely top three finish. In race terms an engine change or full set even will not make more than probably 3 points loss in the race, and a fresh engine or engine run harder will possibly give more than that in one race.

Honda were stung by the remarks of the earlier engines and probably feel they need to cultivate a reputation for an unbreakable engine to compensate.

I wonder have Honda taken into consideration the sight of Max with their engine carving through the field chewing up names like Renault and Ferrari may have on prospective car buyers?

[Sieper]

Last year Max was stuck at P7. The mighty Merc of Perez and the end of his tires (he already overtook quite some guys) was responsible for that.

[Revs84]

In the post-qualifying driver conference, Bottas said that Mercedes used the usual qualifying modes as they did during other quali sessions in previous weekends. For me this means that they used the most aggressive qualifying mode they have.



Whether it's true or not, it's hard to tell. In reality, you never know if they already changed anything in the modes in preparation for Monza. With that said, why would they go with a lower mode and risk losing pole position?

As I mentioned having an opinion based on inference is perfectly fine. For me personally I think he trotted out the standard company line and I don't think that the amount of downforce they added would explain their low speed trap figures in q3 with party mode hence I tend to believe they probably didn't. Additionally why would Tanabe say they didn't use Q3 mode, he is generally pretty honest to the press. In any case as you say we simply don't know the truth one way or the other but I would be very happy if the gap lessens at Monza and we get some competitive action within 2-3 races.

I agree with you in the most part. What I can't agree with you on, is the fact that you present their 'low' speed traps as the main proof that they were not running their most powerful quali mode.

In Spa, both Mercedes and Red Bull ran with higher downforce due to prediction of rain. If you look at where the speed trap in Spa is, it's just before the Kemmel straight and before DRS activation zone. Hence, it's not a surprise that the speed at the speed trap was less than other cars running less downforce.

But guess what? While Mercedes did not have the highest speed traps, they did have the highest maximum speed. So even though they start the Kemmel straight with less speed, after DRS is activated, they still are achieving the maximum speeds. That surely must count for some impressive power modes no?

[Revs84]

Last year Max was stuck at P7. The mighty Merc of Perez and the end of his tires (he already overtook quite some guys) was responsible for that.

Depending on which race you're talking about. Unless it's mandatory due to a failure, a grid penalty can be taken strategically.

Granted, there's a higher risk of accident when you have to plough through the field, but I still see it as a risk worth taking if you have a better chance to fight for pole and for victories in all other 9 races.

[tangodjango]

In the post-qualifying driver conference, Bottas said that Mercedes used the usual qualifying modes as they did during other quali sessions in previous weekends. For me this means that they used the most aggressive qualifying mode they have.



Whether it's true or not, it's hard to tell. In reality, you never know if they already changed anything in the modes in preparation for Monza. With that said, why would they go with a lower mode and risk losing pole position?

As I mentioned having an opinion based on inference is perfectly fine. For me personally I think he trotted out the standard company line and I don't think that the amount of downforce they added would explain their low speed trap figures in q3 with party mode hence I tend to believe they probably didn't. Additionally why would Tanabe say they didn't use Q3 mode, he is generally pretty honest to the press. In any case as you say we simply don't know the truth one way or the other but I would be very happy if the gap lessens at Monza and we get some competitive action within 2-3 races.

I agree with you in the most part. What I can't agree with you on, is the fact that you present their 'low' speed traps as the main proof that they were not running their most powerful quali mode.

In Spa, both Mercedes and Red Bull ran with higher downforce due to prediction of rain. If you look at where the speed trap in Spa is, it's just before the Kemmel straight and before DRS activation zone. Hence, it's not a surprise that the speed at the speed trap was less than other cars running less downforce.

But guess what? While Mercedes did not have the highest speed traps, they did have the highest maximum speed. So even though they start the Kemmel straight with less speed, after DRS is activated, they still are achieving the maximum speeds. That surely must count for some impressive power modes no?

That's a very good point but the average improvement from q1 to Q3 has reduced for Mercedes and I base my hunch on that not just on speed trap figures. I guess if the deficit reduces to within half a second (hopefully much less) over the next 3-4 races we can conclude that ban of quali mode combined with RBR upgrades have definitely pegged Merc back.

[Sayeman]

Regarding Honda PU performance, what I am noticing this year from onboard videos is that the PU has excellent acceleration but poor top speed. When compared to Renault, at some points Honda is up by 6-7 km/h but then then Renault catches up and keeps accelerating. At the Spa start, as soon as Max pulled out of Bottas's slipstream he started losing ground.

Last year at Abu Dhabi, i remember Renault was struggling to keep up with the impressive spec 4 engine.

Considering the illegal Ferrari PU was the benchmark for everyone this year, I dont think Honda made enough progress during the offseason compared to Merc and Renault.

[ispano6]

Regarding Honda PU performance, what I am noticing this year from onboard videos is that the PU has excellent acceleration but poor top speed. When compared to Renault, at some points Honda is up by 6-7 km/h but then then Renault catches up and keeps accelerating. At the Spa start, as soon as Max pulled out of Bottas's slipstream he started losing ground.

Last year at Abu Dhabi, i remember Renault was struggling to keep up with the impressive spec 4 engine.

Considering the illegal Ferrari PU was the benchmark for everyone this year, I dont think Honda made enough progress during the offseason compared to Merc and Renault.

Too much downforce and no rain.
https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... Pq5do.html

Monday Morning Debrief: How two crucial choices by Red Bull blunted their attack on Mercedes at Spa

Red Bull tried their very small wing on Friday morning – and the car seemed to like it. It made the RB16 8km/h quicker through the speed trap than with the bigger wing and was only losing it a couple of tenths through the middle sector.

Overall the lap times were similar and the balance of the car was, if anything, better on the smaller wing. But there was a complicating factor: the forecast for Sunday was rain. In which case, obviously the higher-downforce set up would be much better. That’s what Red Bull chose to go with from Friday afternoon.
...
Just as at the British Grand Prix, this issue was made more acute by a safety car that led everyone to pit much earlier than planned – in this case by about 10 laps. A second stint of around 30 laps forced Hamilton, Bottas and Verstappen into backing off considerably as they felt the front tyre vibrations that invariably mean excessive wear. Because the tread does not wear evenly across the surface, an increasing mismatch of tread depth causes that vibration.