[ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:04 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:56 am
nzjrs wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:36 pm


(not picking on you) but I wonder what the overlap of people is that believe that drivers do/do not have significant influence on the design of the car 'Hamiltonstappen is good at developing cars' vs those that do/do not belive that drivers have/have not information about the PU operation and influence on its mapping.
I think cars are built based on science with the understanding that they must give drivers confidence. So there is a fine tuning. It is also hard to deferentiate between driver feedback and all the data that is collected. I'm sure all the feedback that the drivers give is double checked with data.

I think the biggest misconception is that cars are designed for one driver over another. When the reality is they just design the features to make the cars as fast as possible. It just turns out that some drivers can take better advantage of the car's strength.
I agree. However, all parts are NOT the same.

Every engine will have HP differences.
Every carbon piece will have different weight.

A team could purposefully advantage a single driver over the other by simply collecting the best parts to build one car.
You think they run the PUs on the Dyno before they assign them ?

I also think the tolerances are so tight in today manufacturing that the difference in performance between 2 PUs is negligible.

Ok les say the parts vary in weight? Does the weight make them slower or faster ? Does it flex more cause it's lighter? Does the Flex help performance or hurt it? How do you know unless you put both parts in the wind tunnel?

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Manoah2u
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:04 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:56 am
nzjrs wrote:
Sat Dec 26, 2020 5:36 pm


(not picking on you) but I wonder what the overlap of people is that believe that drivers do/do not have significant influence on the design of the car 'Hamiltonstappen is good at developing cars' vs those that do/do not belive that drivers have/have not information about the PU operation and influence on its mapping.
I think cars are built based on science with the understanding that they must give drivers confidence. So there is a fine tuning. It is also hard to deferentiate between driver feedback and all the data that is collected. I'm sure all the feedback that the drivers give is double checked with data.

I think the biggest misconception is that cars are designed for one driver over another. When the reality is they just design the features to make the cars as fast as possible. It just turns out that some drivers can take better advantage of the car's strength.
I agree. However, all parts are NOT the same.

Every engine will have HP differences.
Every carbon piece will have different weight.

A team could purposefully advantage a single driver over the other by simply collecting the best parts to build one car.
I think you're greatly overestimating the differences in HP and weight. There are millions involved in making the best of the best, any weight more than needed is unneccesary and thus in general, won't pass 'quality control' if you may.
That goes for the engines aswell offcourse, so 'purposefully' advantage one over the other is highly unlikely.

at most this might happen with teams that are in financially unhealthier circumstances, like williams in the recent past. A team like Mercedes, a team like RedBull, have vast money to invest so they get the very best and no need to 'save'. Williams has to save, which is why they go for Aluminium/Titanium gearbox casings. When dealing with issues like that, there is no room to 'dispose' or 'redo' a part that has a minimal weight difference, so PERHAPS one driver gets a part that is 0,01 grams lighter than the other. Or perhaps one driver gets spark plugs that have done 4 hours less than the other. If any of this will even result in a performance 'handicap', it's not even going to be worth a tenth, a hundred, at the very best a thousanth of a second a lap. Meanwhile, the only reason such 'difference' would be allowed is because in the end it won't make a difference because they won't be fighting for points anyway.
If they would, then they'd make sure there is no opportunity lost, hence this would not happen.

It's not the material. It's how the driver and engineer deal with the material handed to him, and additionally, how much the team supports / is motivated to wring the most out of the material handed to them, where they also need all the feedback they can get from said driver. Even if the whole team including driver is fully motivated, but the driver can't give the feedback needed to improve, then the driver simply won't improve, no matter how talented they are. If a driver can give great feedback but is a sack of hay, blames the entire team but himself, then the 'camp' itself won't be motivated to wring the best out of the material and there won't be improvement.
If the driver is motivated, gets great feedback, but simply isn't really talented, then there won't be improvement either.

If instead you have a talented driver, that is motivated himself, and also motivates his team, including his own engineer, and is able to give valuable feedback, then there will be improvement. and this is exactly what RBR needs with the 2nd RBR seat, and is something that without any single doubt Perez will be able to achieve better than Albon will/can.

Let's put it like this.

If for some reason, a front wing endplate gets damaged during the start of the race, Albon will claim his material is prohibiting him from driving all out, will complain, and will not get the best result he can with the material he has.
Perez instead, in the same situation, will simply accept this 'handicap' and deal with it the best way he can, and as such, will get the best out of what he can.

this attitude will ultimately get the driver to finish for example P3, instead of P2 in a fully functional vehicle, whereas the 'negative' attitude, will see the driver tumble down to P6 at best.
"Explain the ending to F1 in football terms"
"Hamilton was beating Verstappen 7-0, then the ref decided F%$& rules, next goal wins
while also sending off 4 Hamilton players to make it more interesting"

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Manoah2u wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:59 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:04 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:56 am


I think cars are built based on science with the understanding that they must give drivers confidence. So there is a fine tuning. It is also hard to deferentiate between driver feedback and all the data that is collected. I'm sure all the feedback that the drivers give is double checked with data.

I think the biggest misconception is that cars are designed for one driver over another. When the reality is they just design the features to make the cars as fast as possible. It just turns out that some drivers can take better advantage of the car's strength.
I agree. However, all parts are NOT the same.

Every engine will have HP differences.
Every carbon piece will have different weight.

A team could purposefully advantage a single driver over the other by simply collecting the best parts to build one car.
I think you're greatly overestimating the differences in HP and weight. There are millions involved in making the best of the best, any weight more than needed is unneccesary and thus in general, won't pass 'quality control' if you may.
That goes for the engines aswell offcourse, so 'purposefully' advantage one over the other is highly unlikely.

at most this might happen with teams that are in financially unhealthier circumstances, like williams in the recent past. A team like Mercedes, a team like RedBull, have vast money to invest so they get the very best and no need to 'save'. Williams has to save, which is why they go for Aluminium/Titanium gearbox casings. When dealing with issues like that, there is no room to 'dispose' or 'redo' a part that has a minimal weight difference, so PERHAPS one driver gets a part that is 0,01 grams lighter than the other. Or perhaps one driver gets spark plugs that have done 4 hours less than the other. If any of this will even result in a performance 'handicap', it's not even going to be worth a tenth, a hundred, at the very best a thousanth of a second a lap. Meanwhile, the only reason such 'difference' would be allowed is because in the end it won't make a difference because they won't be fighting for points anyway.
If they would, then they'd make sure there is no opportunity lost, hence this would not happen.

It's not the material. It's how the driver and engineer deal with the material handed to him, and additionally, how much the team supports / is motivated to wring the most out of the material handed to them, where they also need all the feedback they can get from said driver. Even if the whole team including driver is fully motivated, but the driver can't give the feedback needed to improve, then the driver simply won't improve, no matter how talented they are. If a driver can give great feedback but is a sack of hay, blames the entire team but himself, then the 'camp' itself won't be motivated to wring the best out of the material and there won't be improvement.
If the driver is motivated, gets great feedback, but simply isn't really talented, then there won't be improvement either.

If instead you have a talented driver, that is motivated himself, and also motivates his team, including his own engineer, and is able to give valuable feedback, then there will be improvement. and this is exactly what RBR needs with the 2nd RBR seat, and is something that without any single doubt Perez will be able to achieve better than Albon will/can.

Let's put it like this.

If for some reason, a front wing endplate gets damaged during the start of the race, Albon will claim his material is prohibiting him from driving all out, will complain, and will not get the best result he can with the material he has.
Perez instead, in the same situation, will simply accept this 'handicap' and deal with it the best way he can, and as such, will get the best out of what he can.

this attitude will ultimately get the driver to finish for example P3, instead of P2 in a fully functional vehicle, whereas the 'negative' attitude, will see the driver tumble down to P6 at best.
I like the way you put it better than mine! Well said!

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godlameroso
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Man, I'm excited for next year. I'm pretty sure about 1/4th through the season it'll turn into a bargeboard design war. That's ok, RBR is ready, Red Bull gives you wings.
Saishū kōnā

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Zynerji
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Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2016 3:14 pm

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:57 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:04 pm
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:56 am


I think cars are built based on science with the understanding that they must give drivers confidence. So there is a fine tuning. It is also hard to deferentiate between driver feedback and all the data that is collected. I'm sure all the feedback that the drivers give is double checked with data.

I think the biggest misconception is that cars are designed for one driver over another. When the reality is they just design the features to make the cars as fast as possible. It just turns out that some drivers can take better advantage of the car's strength.
I agree. However, all parts are NOT the same.

Every engine will have HP differences.
Every carbon piece will have different weight.

A team could purposefully advantage a single driver over the other by simply collecting the best parts to build one car.
You think they run the PUs on the Dyno before they assign them ?

I also think the tolerances are so tight in today manufacturing that the difference in performance between 2 PUs is negligible.

Ok les say the parts vary in weight? Does the weight make them slower or faster ? Does it flex more cause it's lighter? Does the Flex help performance or hurt it? How do you know unless you put both parts in the wind tunnel?
If given 2 sets of pieces to build 2 cars. If one car receives the lightest part of each available, he can then run more CoG lowering ballast.

I'm also 100% sure the engines are individually broken in on the dyno before distribution to customer teams. Why wouldn't it be done internally? I'm sure Merc keep the top 2 performers each generation. Why would you give Williams an extra 4hp?

So, HP advantage + weight savings can make a huge difference between team mates if a team is inclined to help one over the other.

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diffuser
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Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:55 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:37 am
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:57 pm
Zynerji wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 4:04 pm


I agree. However, all parts are NOT the same.

Every engine will have HP differences.
Every carbon piece will have different weight.

A team could purposefully advantage a single driver over the other by simply collecting the best parts to build one car.
You think they run the PUs on the Dyno before they assign them ?

I also think the tolerances are so tight in today manufacturing that the difference in performance between 2 PUs is negligible.

Ok les say the parts vary in weight? Does the weight make them slower or faster ? Does it flex more cause it's lighter? Does the Flex help performance or hurt it? How do you know unless you put both parts in the wind tunnel?
If given 2 sets of pieces to build 2 cars. If one car receives the lightest part of each available, he can then run more CoG lowering ballast.

I'm also 100% sure the engines are individually broken in on the dyno before distribution to customer teams. Why wouldn't it be done internally? I'm sure Merc keep the top 2 performers each generation. Why would you give Williams an extra 4hp?

So, HP advantage + weight savings can make a huge difference between team mates if a team is inclined to help one over the other.
You realize you're talking grams right? Not KGs. My guess is, if they're broken, it's done in some manual process. Not they're actually run. And why isn't the PU with 4 more HP have 3 less lbs of torque? Why are the difference always have to be clear black and white?
What about when they replace one of the 5 sections, like MGU-H turbo or ICE? How do the control that?

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lio007
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Helmut Marko on the next PU-generation. Other than that, nothing really new.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... e/4932111/

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Zynerji
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:28 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:37 am
diffuser wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:57 pm


You think they run the PUs on the Dyno before they assign them ?

I also think the tolerances are so tight in today manufacturing that the difference in performance between 2 PUs is negligible.

Ok les say the parts vary in weight? Does the weight make them slower or faster ? Does it flex more cause it's lighter? Does the Flex help performance or hurt it? How do you know unless you put both parts in the wind tunnel?
If given 2 sets of pieces to build 2 cars. If one car receives the lightest part of each available, he can then run more CoG lowering ballast.

I'm also 100% sure the engines are individually broken in on the dyno before distribution to customer teams. Why wouldn't it be done internally? I'm sure Merc keep the top 2 performers each generation. Why would you give Williams an extra 4hp?

So, HP advantage + weight savings can make a huge difference between team mates if a team is inclined to help one over the other.
You realize you're talking grams right? Not KGs. My guess is, if they're broken, it's done in some manual process. Not they're actually run. And why isn't the PU with 4 more HP have 3 less lbs of torque? Why are the difference always have to be clear black and white?
What about when they replace one of the 5 sections, like MGU-H turbo or ICE? How do the control that?
Why defend against this like it is personal?

It doesn't matter if it's "just grams" or just 1hp. The clear fact is that all manufacturing has variance. That variance can be managed. It can be collected and distributed to benefit one driver over another, invisibly.

Why are you so disbelieving of those facts?

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Sieper
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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which facts? what do you know about the teams actually spending time to compare parts? I think it highly unlikely. they spend time designing and producing parts, often to the point that they just have one part ready, not even two.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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lio007 wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:15 pm
Helmut Marko on the next PU-generation. Other than that, nothing really new.
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/red- ... e/4932111/
If the 2026 power unit is a 3.2L V12 (i.e., the current 1.6L V6 expanded to the non-turbocharged equivalent, going by historical 2:1 forced induction equivalence) with a spec KERS system like LMDh or BTCC, then I reckon RBR could build one (or get Cosworth to build it). =D> =D> F1 really has to be serious about the opportunity to cut costs and provide a unique V12 product motorsports fans won't find elsewhere (in an age of electrification), all at the same time!

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:57 pm
It doesn't matter if it's "just grams" or just 1hp. The clear fact is that all manufacturing has variance. That variance can be managed. It can be collected and distributed to benefit one driver over another, invisibly.
A racing team has no reason to deliberately disadvantage one of their drivers. Even when operations are running four cars like in Indycar, GTE or Supercars, there is little suggestion of not giving all the entries the best equipment possible -- it would be silly to hold back Power & Pagenaud and give all the best parts to Newgarden!

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diffuser
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 12:57 pm
diffuser wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:28 am
Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:37 am


If given 2 sets of pieces to build 2 cars. If one car receives the lightest part of each available, he can then run more CoG lowering ballast.

I'm also 100% sure the engines are individually broken in on the dyno before distribution to customer teams. Why wouldn't it be done internally? I'm sure Merc keep the top 2 performers each generation. Why would you give Williams an extra 4hp?

So, HP advantage + weight savings can make a huge difference between team mates if a team is inclined to help one over the other.
You realize you're talking grams right? Not KGs. My guess is, if they're broken, it's done in some manual process. Not they're actually run. And why isn't the PU with 4 more HP have 3 less lbs of torque? Why are the difference always have to be clear black and white?
What about when they replace one of the 5 sections, like MGU-H turbo or ICE? How do the control that?
Why defend against this like it is personal?

It doesn't matter if it's "just grams" or just 1hp. The clear fact is that all manufacturing has variance. That variance can be managed. It can be collected and distributed to benefit one driver over another, invisibly.

Why are you so disbelieving of those facts?
Sorry, I get a little excited... I'm not taking it personal.

Well, firstly they're not facts, they're all assumptions. Lets say Hamilton's front wing is 2 grams lighter than Bottas's. Who's to say that Bottas's team will not sand it and remove 4 grams?

It's an assumption that they Dyno the PU before putting them into the cars.

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JordanMugen
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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4 grams on a front wing is going to make no difference to anything! The decals weigh more than that... I imagine the crews would be under strict insturctions not to sand the actual profile part of the wing, as that could mess up the carefully calculated profile (not to mention risk disqualification if the NACA neutral central section does not match the FIA template!).

Moore77 wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 6:44 am
In one of the podcasts, Patrick Head sarcastically said, a lot of good drivers think they know engineering and laughed. That is what strong engineers think of a driver's engineering knowledge. Drivers are merely just a tool for engineers to collect data that would help them refine their ideas. I doubt if the engineers look at the drivers with the same awe that an average race fan looks at them as some kind of heroes. From that standpoint, i don't think drivers play a big role in development of a car.
Well, Frank Dernie said he was very happy with Alan Jones' knowledge. :) Jones would come in and note oversteer in the sweepers, but then rule out a suggestion of a bigger front swaybar as it would make understeer at the hairpin worse. He didn't have an essay to recite, but rather could pinpoint the issues that cost the most laptime and then only contradict the setup change if it would lose laptime elsewhere. Of course, such driver analysis was more important in the days before data logging.

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Zynerji
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Its the cumulative total over thousands of parts.

In any manufacturing, there is variance. PERIOD. If it is watched, and all of the lightest parts (1000+) of the bunch are directed towards a single chassis build, that chassis will have an edge over the other (by several kg), due to more available ballast. And the Engines are DEFINITELY run on the dyno before going into the cars... It has been spoken about, over and over and over by the teams since the 2006 2.4l V8 days. Most of the open discussion was about how the Factory teams cherry pick the best of the bunch, and sell the customer teams the rest. That can ONLY happen if they are broken-in and tested on the dyno before disbursement.

I cannot believe that ANY "serious" race engine would be built and installed without a Dyno break-in period.... Even YouTube racers do that. #-o

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Big Tea
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Re: [ 2020 ] Aston Martin RedBull Racing F1 Team - Honda

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Zynerji wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 3:55 pm
Its the cumulative total over thousands of parts.

In any manufacturing, there is variance. PERIOD. If it is watched, and all of the lightest parts (1000+) of the bunch are directed towards a single chassis build, that chassis will have an edge over the other (by several kg), due to more available ballast. And the Engines are DEFINITELY run on the dyno before going into the cars... It has been spoken about, over and over and over by the teams since the 2006 2.4l V8 days. Most of the open discussion was about how the Factory teams cherry pick the best of the bunch, and sell the customer teams the rest. That can ONLY happen if they are broken-in and tested on the dyno before disbursement.

I cannot believe that ANY "serious" race engine would be built and installed without a Dyno break-in period.... Even YouTube racers do that. #-o
There is always a reason an engine gives higher o/p on a dyno, usually clearance, so a gain in o/p also means reduced life I assume.

It is one of those things you can not win, just decide how you lose
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