post traumatic crash disorder

[-shr3d-]

hey all,

is it just me, coincidence or tighter safety controls but it seems that drivers seem to be missing races a lot more often from accidents that are fairly serious but dont result in any serious physical injuries as such.....

ralf schumacher being the last person to suffer from this and at a crucial stage in his (and his team's ) championship fight...

could this be caused by the physiological demands on the body in modern F1 or possibly a side effect of the HANS devices.... ??

[Monstrobolaxa]

In Ralfs case.......physicological demands

[Monstrobolaxa]

After posting yesterday....I went home and thought a little about what you said Sh3d......well...the HANS (head and neck system/suppor - like I like to put it)...only prevents whip lash of the head....it doesn't prevent the brain from it.....so it does reduce the amout of deceleration of the head but not of the brain....so it the hans might be afecting the drivers...in Ralfs case....the head aches might have something to do with the hans....in Firmans case....it's a ear problem....

[-shr3d-]

excellent point monstro............come to think of it, i have a feeling from my football days that concussion is caused by a shock to the brain, which maybe caused by a hit to the head (which ralf no doubt would have received) or conversely, a sudden movement of the brain within the skull which the HANS device would cause........hmmm

lets see how jenson pulls up from his last adventure yesterday.....

[Monstrobolaxa]

Exactly....

[MOrenault]

The problem with the HANS device is that it is designed almost entirely for head-on crashes.

However, Firman, Schumacher and Button's crashes this year have been pretty much side-on impacts.

As a few people have already pointed out, the 'headaches' the drivers are experiencing may have been a result of the brain moving within the skull. In the case of a side-impact, the Hans device may prevent the driver's head moving from side to side within the cockpit - And this could be causing the brain to move within the skull instead...

It's interesting that these larger crashes are now forcing the driver out of races. Before the Hans device was introduced, I can vividly remember Fisichella having a few massive crashes at Monza; but he returned to testing/racing the next day without the slightest concern.

[Steven]

As Jacques Villeneuve said before the intoduction of HANS: The device would have caused many more injuries viewing at the last 5 year's accidents that we have seen as a result of them without the HANS system.

Interesting point, everybody thought he was just anti-HANS, but in fact he made a serious point here

The solution however may be to increase the area of movement of the head, but hold it (aside from the way the helmet is attached to hans at the moment) with some sort of a string that can decelerate the head before it cannot move further aside/ahead.

[Beostar]

I agree with the things posted above. But I was wondering they use it in the IRL or CART not sure and in the DTM for a couple of year so why would F1 have problems with the HANS while the other series use it without any problems?

[Monstrobolaxa]

Well....they do use it in almost all the other important racing categories....in the case of IRL simply theyrace on ovals and the impact angle with the wall is never that big....it's almost a head on collision! (about 14º do 35º if I'm not mistaken)....

I the other categories....it might have to do with the race car conseption....a CART has ground effects which sticks the car to the ground....and a DTM has a very big area that gets stuck in the gravel....it these last F1 accidents the didn't loose to much speed before impact....in both Ralf F and Sch that cars were airbourne.....in Buttons case the car just slid on the tarmat.... so the problem F1 drivers are facing might also have to do with the car conseption......but this is only me thinking....not too sure...and besides that I don't watch any other type of racing....I do know the regs....but don't watch the races....so don't know if there has been a serious accident this year....

[-shr3d-]

good points as always monstro,

i wonder what detailed studies they did into possible accident scenarios in the various racing categories for the design process for the HANS system, and whether there are differences in the design of the unit for the appropriate categories.

[NickT]

The impact velocities and the G forces being pulled in both these accidents were huge, I think Firman's was 47G [-o< I think that speed is the real issue here.

The accidents we are discussing today might not have been survivable 5 or certainly 10 years ago, given the regulations of the time. Even if they were survivable I certainly think the drivers would have sustained more physical damage.

Also I cannot see the FIA and particularly Prof. Sid Watkins making anything mandatory unless it had been fully tested, either physically or through electronic modelling. Especially given the FIA's stance on safety with NCAP and mandatory F1 crash testing.

Finally, both Ralf F and Ralf S's accidents were at high speed and the result of unexpected mechanical failures, leaving them no way of slowing or really scrubbing of speed, they were just passengers, so they were really big crashes!

[Monstrobolaxa]

Only 47 G's in Firmans accident ....I believe that if you say that was the average.....cause for example in 1999 Shucmacher accident at Silverstone reached a peek of 190g's (but for 2/3miliseconds)...and the impact speed was 198km/h.....in Firmans case the impact speed was about 285km/h.....well....250km/h.....285km/h was the speed he left the track with....and for sure he wouldn't have suvived....if the accident have been before 1996.

[P.Po]

I personally think this device called the Isaac is much better than the hans device -> http://www.isaacdirect.com/index.html

It allows for full range of neck movement, but it slows down the speed at which the head travels to a certain point. Thus reducing the brain squish and the whiplash (also prevents basal skull fracture like the HANS and Hutchenson).

I like this device because it isn't to restricting and does allow for some side to side movement of the head. It is also comfortable to wear, I have tried it myself.

Cheers,
P.Po

[NickT]

Hey P.Po, the Isaac certainly looks the business from what I read on the web site. Perhaps you should point it out to Sid Watkins and the FIA?

Monstrobolaxa makes a good point about the Schmi crash having a higher g, but I would like to add his was virtually straight on. Firman's was spinning and backwards. Straight on is straightforward and the safety systems work well and uniformly hence the lack on head injury despite the higher g forces at impact.

Did you see the way Firmans car continued to rotate and was spat back from the wall after the initial impact?! Ouch! Ralf's body would have had to deal with the change in the rotation accelerations/ decelerations as well as the impact. I think Jenson's Monaco hit was similar in that respect and he to had problems.

[Monstrobolaxa]

Interesting...the Isaac...I only pointed out the Schummy accident so to show that 47 g was a very small number for the Firman accident....

the number of G's come from aceleration

Aceleration= (variation in speed)/(the time that elapses during the loss of speed or gain)

G= (aceleration)/(9,81)