Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
Exactly- the teams would all work out an optimum desired start/finish position in any such races and/or you might end up with a ridiculous situation with everyone trying to come 7th or 8th or some such rubbish.

Mostly you'll just get a big train of cars and probably a load of crashes with lots of the midfield trying ambitious moves to get to the front of the grid and the drivers at the front with no WDC ambitions really desperate to keep their position. How long is the race? How possible will it even be going from near the back to near the front? Are the top cars really going to risk crashing out and starting last in the main race? They'll be super cautious.You'd probably get the AT cars and RBR #2 car letting RBR #1 straight past while actively holding up Ferrari and Mercedes, and probably the same with some other team combinations.

It's one of those that looks good on paper or in someone's mind but the reality will likely cause more issues than it solves.

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mem
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:03 am
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
In my proposals there would be no sprint race, just qualifying that awards points. That way teams will have to do their best or lose out on points on Saturday.
ok , iam in i don't think there is any thing worse than the current qualy (its great) but seeing the same results week after week year after year is boring very boring
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:16 am

Exactly- the teams would all work out an optimum desired start/finish position in any such races and/or you might end up with a ridiculous situation with everyone trying to come 7th or 8th or some such rubbish.

Mostly you'll just get a big train of cars and probably a load of crashes with lots of the midfield trying ambitious moves to get to the front of the grid and the drivers at the front with no WDC ambitions really desperate to keep their position. How long is the race? How possible will it even be going from near the back to near the front? Are the top cars really going to risk crashing out and starting last in the main race? They'll be super cautious.You'd probably get the AT cars and RBR #2 car letting RBR #1 straight past while actively holding up Ferrari and Mercedes, and probably the same with some other team combinations.

It's one of those that looks good on paper or in someone's mind but the reality will likely cause more issues than it solves.
lets give it a try it won't be more dull and borefest than what we have now.

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:16 am
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
Exactly- the teams would all work out an optimum desired start/finish position in any such races and/or you might end up with a ridiculous situation with everyone trying to come 7th or 8th or some such rubbish.

Mostly you'll just get a big train of cars and probably a load of crashes with lots of the midfield trying ambitious moves to get to the front of the grid and the drivers at the front with no WDC ambitions really desperate to keep their position. How long is the race? How possible will it even be going from near the back to near the front? Are the top cars really going to risk crashing out and starting last in the main race? They'll be super cautious.You'd probably get the AT cars and RBR #2 car letting RBR #1 straight past while actively holding up Ferrari and Mercedes, and probably the same with some other team combinations.

It's one of those that looks good on paper or in someone's mind but the reality will likely cause more issues than it solves.
Simple, give points out for qualifying on Saturday as well as for the race on Sunday.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:34 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:16 am
mem wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:53 am
in such scenario what prevent Mercedes or RBR from doing slow sprint race to finish last to start first on Sunday ?
Exactly- the teams would all work out an optimum desired start/finish position in any such races and/or you might end up with a ridiculous situation with everyone trying to come 7th or 8th or some such rubbish.

Mostly you'll just get a big train of cars and probably a load of crashes with lots of the midfield trying ambitious moves to get to the front of the grid and the drivers at the front with no WDC ambitions really desperate to keep their position. How long is the race? How possible will it even be going from near the back to near the front? Are the top cars really going to risk crashing out and starting last in the main race? They'll be super cautious.You'd probably get the AT cars and RBR #2 car letting RBR #1 straight past while actively holding up Ferrari and Mercedes, and probably the same with some other team combinations.

It's one of those that looks good on paper or in someone's mind but the reality will likely cause more issues than it solves.
Simple, give points out for qualifying on Saturday as well as for the race on Sunday.
Again, the teams will just work out the optimum position to finish in on Saturday to give the best aggregate return over the weekend as a whole regarding start position on Sunday rather than going all out to try and plough through the field and get their car punted off the track or damaged. (What happens if multiple cars have to retire from the sprint race and where should they start on Sunday?) Obviously the points for such a race will be nowhere near the points for a main race and nor should they so it'll likely not be worth fighting that hard over for any of the title contenders.

Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:34 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:16 am


Exactly- the teams would all work out an optimum desired start/finish position in any such races and/or you might end up with a ridiculous situation with everyone trying to come 7th or 8th or some such rubbish.

Mostly you'll just get a big train of cars and probably a load of crashes with lots of the midfield trying ambitious moves to get to the front of the grid and the drivers at the front with no WDC ambitions really desperate to keep their position. How long is the race? How possible will it even be going from near the back to near the front? Are the top cars really going to risk crashing out and starting last in the main race? They'll be super cautious.You'd probably get the AT cars and RBR #2 car letting RBR #1 straight past while actively holding up Ferrari and Mercedes, and probably the same with some other team combinations.

It's one of those that looks good on paper or in someone's mind but the reality will likely cause more issues than it solves.
Simple, give points out for qualifying on Saturday as well as for the race on Sunday.
Again, the teams will just work out the optimum position to finish in on Saturday to give the best aggregate return over the weekend as a whole regarding start position on Sunday rather than going all out to try and plough through the field and get their car punted off the track or damaged. (What happens if multiple cars have to retire from the sprint race and where should they start on Sunday?) Obviously the points for such a race will be nowhere near the points for a main race and nor should they so it'll likely not be worth fighting that hard over for any of the title contenders.
You just can't work things out like that as there's too many variables involved.

If you award full points for Saturday as well as Sunday then surely they will have to go all out in qualifying?

You can't expect a driver to calculate a tenth or two on Saturday when on the limit in qualifying.

My proposal was to just have the one race over the weekend and leave qualifying as it is but instead give out points for your grid position.

bjpower
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Monaco will be fantastic. Won by the slowest car in the grid every year

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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bjpower wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:45 am
Monaco will be fantastic. Won by the slowest car in the grid every year
But he would be no better off as he would get no points or very little points for qualifying last on Saturday.

Wynters
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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If the aim is to increase overtaking, perhaps giving the drivers more tools to aid overtaking would work? F1 is all about technology, so why not allow the drivers to alter the power available to them through their PU? It'd be a bit like the chess match we see with ERS deployment as it would allow a following driver to pressure their target into using their allocation of engine 'boost' before turning their own engine up (or using it at unexpected points on the track) to significantly increase their chances of an overtake.

Oh...

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:38 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:34 am


Simple, give points out for qualifying on Saturday as well as for the race on Sunday.
Again, the teams will just work out the optimum position to finish in on Saturday to give the best aggregate return over the weekend as a whole regarding start position on Sunday rather than going all out to try and plough through the field and get their car punted off the track or damaged. (What happens if multiple cars have to retire from the sprint race and where should they start on Sunday?) Obviously the points for such a race will be nowhere near the points for a main race and nor should they so it'll likely not be worth fighting that hard over for any of the title contenders.
You just can't work things out like that as there's too many variables involved.

If you award full points for Saturday as well as Sunday then surely they will have to go all out in qualifying?

You can't expect a driver to calculate a tenth or two on Saturday when on the limit in qualifying.

My proposal was to just have the one race over the weekend and leave qualifying as it is but instead give out points for your grid position.
You can guarantee the teams will model a 'most efficient scenario' which may even involve not trying to actually win either race, depending on what points may or may not be awarded, how it's weighted and how it affects start positions for the main race. It could be just as ridiculous as Monza qualifying last year.

I'd also say unless you have a direct hotline to Ross Brawn, there's probably not a lot of point of thinking too long and hard about your own separate proposal!

Wass85
Wass85
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:07 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:38 am


Again, the teams will just work out the optimum position to finish in on Saturday to give the best aggregate return over the weekend as a whole regarding start position on Sunday rather than going all out to try and plough through the field and get their car punted off the track or damaged. (What happens if multiple cars have to retire from the sprint race and where should they start on Sunday?) Obviously the points for such a race will be nowhere near the points for a main race and nor should they so it'll likely not be worth fighting that hard over for any of the title contenders.
You just can't work things out like that as there's too many variables involved.

If you award full points for Saturday as well as Sunday then surely they will have to go all out in qualifying?

You can't expect a driver to calculate a tenth or two on Saturday when on the limit in qualifying.

My proposal was to just have the one race over the weekend and leave qualifying as it is but instead give out points for your grid position.
You can guarantee the teams will model a 'most efficient scenario' which may even involve not trying to actually win either race, depending on what points may or may not be awarded, how it's weighted and how it affects start positions for the main race. It could be just as ridiculous as Monza qualifying last year.

I'd also say unless you have a direct hotline to Ross Brawn, there's probably not a lot of point of thinking too long and hard about your own separate proposal!
There would be no race on Saturday just a qualifying session like now but one with points that are scored the same as the race.

Of course the brains of the team will try to work out what's most efficient but you just have to look at James Vowles and all the blunders he makes to see things won't be black and white.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:12 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:07 am
Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:43 am


You just can't work things out like that as there's too many variables involved.

If you award full points for Saturday as well as Sunday then surely they will have to go all out in qualifying?

You can't expect a driver to calculate a tenth or two on Saturday when on the limit in qualifying.

My proposal was to just have the one race over the weekend and leave qualifying as it is but instead give out points for your grid position.
You can guarantee the teams will model a 'most efficient scenario' which may even involve not trying to actually win either race, depending on what points may or may not be awarded, how it's weighted and how it affects start positions for the main race. It could be just as ridiculous as Monza qualifying last year.

I'd also say unless you have a direct hotline to Ross Brawn, there's probably not a lot of point of thinking too long and hard about your own separate proposal!
There would be no race on Saturday just a qualifying session like now but one with points that are scored the same as the race.
I assume this is in your proposed system rather than what's actually on the table? There's not really a lot of point in discussing that.

Fulcrum
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Toto Wolff, Mercedes F1 boss, has said he opposes the plan on three points - arguing that the sport is a meritocracy, that the employment of reverse grids in other categories leads to the events being 'gamed', and that the idea excessively penalises the team with the fastest car versus the ones with the second and third-fastest cars.
  • The sport is a meritocracy.
No it is not. Historic payments to previously/currently successful teams undermine this idea entirely, saying nothing of the FIA's conduct (Ferrari International Assistance,etc....), the incestuous and nepotistic nature of the politicking, the genuine 2-tier structure between partner teams and legitimate constructors.
  • that the employment of reverse grids in other categories leads to the events being 'gamed
Every fecking rule in the sport is gamed. I mean, evaluated and engineered right up to the point of abuse, in many cases beyond that. Racing Point and the fuel flow being two notable recent examples. Here is another vector for you to 'game' Toto.
  • the idea excessively penalises the team with the fastest car versus the ones with the second and third-fastest cars
Consider the opposite, a ruleset that penalized slower cars more than the fastest car. Would that be more meritocratic? We already have plenty of rules that reinforce advantage (qualifying, grids, prize money distribution, blue flags, etc...).

The fact of the matter is the sport is a gimmick, its entertainment. Many of the rules and restrictions are gimmicks for the specific purpose of 'enhancing the show' such as DRS and degrading tyres.

From my perspective its quite simple. Try it. If it is unsuccessful, bin it quickly, just like the knockout qualifying.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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I used to like Fe, except for 'fanboost', but with each successive gimmick it got worse. I realy hope F1 does not give in to this rubbish.
Everyone wil be trying to qualify 9 or 10, unless thy give a 5 point pole and reducing to 1 at 5.

We will then see a team or two making what was done in Le Mans with the highest Mulsan speed special. Pole and fastest lap a guaranteed 6 points for your weakest race car.

People attracted by this rubbish will come to F1 for a year or two, then realise what crap it is and leave. By this time, the rest of us wil have gone too, so they just as well pack up the show.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:34 am
I used to like Fe, except for 'fanboost', but with each successive gimmick it got worse. I realy hope F1 does not give in to this rubbish.
Everyone wil be trying to qualify 9 or 10, unless thy give a 5 point pole and reducing to 1 at 5.

We will then see a team or two making what was done in Le Mans with the highest Mulsan speed special. Pole and fastest lap a guaranteed 6 points for your weakest race car.

People attracted by this rubbish will come to F1 for a year or two, then realise what crap it is and leave. By this time, the rest of us wil have gone too, so they just as well pack up the show.
Absolutely!

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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One issue I see with the sudden desire for reverse grids based on one race result, is that we've been here before. Remember the Canada race where there was lots of tyre changing because of conditions. Everyone said it was a great race and we should force more tyre changes. Result? Seasons of ridiculous tyre issues and everyone moaning about tyres designed to wear out quickly to ensure multiple tyre changes. And then the teams figured it out and they all drive like a Sunday afternoon family drive in order to preserve the tyres.

For a bunch of otherwise clever people, F1 is really rubbish at seeing the big picture and following through the possible/likely bad consequences of their ideas.

If they want to "shake it up" and "improve the show", why not just scrap qualifying altogether. Replace it with a drawing of numbers by the drivers. Each driver draws his grid slot from a hat. No driver is allowed to be in any grid slot more than once in a season. So if you draw pole this week, you can't be on pole again. You've just saved a load of expensive tyres and car wear so fits in with the cost cutting mantra too. And it can't be gamed by the teams. The only way to maximise good results is to have cars that can follow each other in the corners. Dump Friday practices, run practice on Saturday, draw the grid on Sunday morning, race on Sunday afternoon. Job done, move on to the next race.
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