Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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dans79
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:42 pm
The overt negative reaction from some is very disappointing. FOM are looking at all means necessary to create F2-style action in F1 racing, and it must be possible. It's not like the F1 drivers lack the skills to make for such close, hard but fair racing.
F2 is a spec series F1 isn't. Imo, people need to stop trying to turn f1, into something it's never been.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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JordanMugen wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:42 pm


The overt negative reaction from some is very disappointing. FOM are looking at all means necessary to create F2-style action in F1 racing, and it must be possible. It's not like the F1 drivers lack the skills to make for such close, hard but fair racing.
The only way to make F1 like F2 is to make F1 a spec series like F2 is. You can design and control the cars so that they are able to run close together. Anything else is a gimmick. So, who shall we have make the cars for this spec series?
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:47 pm


Really, F1 should just try to be a faster Indy Car at this point. That will be the best of both.
Really? Let's make F1 in to Indy Car. That's your suggestion?

With Yanks now owning the rights, we might well see that, but please let's not rush to it.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

bill shoe
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:23 pm
Monaco, especially, will just be a case of "finish as you start" as overtaking is all but impossible even with a decently quicker car.
Formula 1 history has consistently shown that when good teams are given an incentive to figure out how to do something new, they do indeed successfully accomplish the new thing.

Drivers and teams can figure out passing at Monaco. For one thing, the whole pack will be backed up behind the pole car so everyone's next victim will be very close in front of them. Action is guaranteed. Monaco may actually become the track with the most passing during a reverse-qualy race.

There will likely be a season or so of drivers learning close-combat skills and etiquette before they become reasonably clean at it. Think of how Formula E has developed from its early days as a near demolition-derby to the current era of close-combat racing. It's a learned skill, and Formula 1 would do well to learn it.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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bill shoe wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:47 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:23 pm
Monaco, especially, will just be a case of "finish as you start" as overtaking is all but impossible even with a decently quicker car.
Formula 1 history has consistently shown that when good teams are given an incentive to figure out how to do something new, they do indeed successfully accomplish the new thing.

Drivers and teams can figure out passing at Monaco. For one thing, the whole pack will be backed up behind the pole car so everyone's next victim will be very close in front of them. Action is guaranteed. Monaco may actually become the track with the most passing during a reverse-qualy race.

There will likely be a season or so of drivers learning close-combat skills and etiquette before they become reasonably clean at it. Think of how Formula E has developed from its early days as a near demolition-derby to the current era of close-combat racing. It's a learned skill, and Formula 1 would do well to learn it.
The apparent answer to the Monaco problem that occurs to me is to have a car at each end.
The A driver goes for it, and ends up starting from the back, the B driver crawls around and starts from the front, holding the cars bunched to allow the A driver to make his way through. He then hold the pack until the B driver has been in the pit and rejoined.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Restomaniac
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 pm
So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.
But are there 'obvious current problems'? The only one that bothers me is that the cars can not run close behind or pass. This just makes it worse.

My particular 'problem' is with blue flag rules. One thing that stood out in that race was the cars were racing each other and being in the same race, instead of losing so much ground every time they are blue flagged they may as well be in a different race.

On a normal day, Gasly would have been blue flagged and told to jump out the way while a race goes by.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Restomaniac
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:08 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 pm
So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.
But are there 'obvious current problems'? The only one that bothers me is that the cars can not run close behind or pass. This just makes it worse.

My particular 'problem' is with blue flag rules. One thing that stood out in that race was the cars were racing each other and being in the same race, instead of losing so much ground every time they are blue flagged they may as well be in a different race.

On a normal day, Gasly would have been blue flagged and told to jump out the way while a race goes by.
How can anyone categorically state that this makes it worse. How about we actually try it first. It if fails then we call all call it a failure.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:08 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:04 pm
So we currently have processions and people complain. We then have a completely mixed up grid and race due to a one time set of circumstances and people complain. The FIA try to do something to patch over the obvious current problems and people complain.

The FIA/Liberty have looked to help overtaking with a complete regs reset including helping cars follow each other and it was supposed to come into play next year added to caps to try and balance the field. However a global pandemic pushed it back 12 months.

It would be easy for the FIA to just shrug and say ‘tough’ they however are trying to do a short term fix to improve the racing. Can we at least give this a go bearing in mind that we actually have processional races currently which people keep complaining about.
But are there 'obvious current problems'? The only one that bothers me is that the cars can not run close behind or pass. This just makes it worse.

My particular 'problem' is with blue flag rules. One thing that stood out in that race was the cars were racing each other and being in the same race, instead of losing so much ground every time they are blue flagged they may as well be in a different race.

On a normal day, Gasly would have been blue flagged and told to jump out the way while a race goes by.
How can anyone categorically state that this makes it worse. How about we actually try it first. It if fails then we call all call it a failure.
There is equal proof it will not work, none.
There is 70 years of background though that it works as it is

Edit, sorry, sounds more aggressive than I intended.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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bill shoe wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:47 pm
Monaco may actually become the track with the most passing during a reverse-qualy race.
No. It won't. Monaco has never been a track where passing is the norm. Never. Just having a reverse grid isn't going to change that. It'll reduce the chances of the most successful driver of his generation, of course, and for some that's all that matters.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Wass85 wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:54 pm
I don't think Toto Wolff will be impressed with McLaren team principal Andreas Seidl after he said the only way to have interesting races in the next year or so will be to artificially slow Mercedes down.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/andreas-s ... -mercedes/
He was not calling for it to happen. He was saying it as an observstion and as a fact.
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Restomaniac
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:31 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:08 pm


But are there 'obvious current problems'? The only one that bothers me is that the cars can not run close behind or pass. This just makes it worse.

My particular 'problem' is with blue flag rules. One thing that stood out in that race was the cars were racing each other and being in the same race, instead of losing so much ground every time they are blue flagged they may as well be in a different race.

On a normal day, Gasly would have been blue flagged and told to jump out the way while a race goes by.
How can anyone categorically state that this makes it worse. How about we actually try it first. It if fails then we call all call it a failure.
There is equal proof it will not work, none.
There is 70 years of background though that it works as it is

Edit, sorry, sounds more aggressive than I intended.
So we do nothing and have Mercedes processions then. With the greatest of respect this is what I’m not getting.

The FIA removed party modes and it didn’t fix it. Let’s put our cards on the table I’m a Hamilton fan and I’ve never hidden that but by god it’s currently boring.

Like I say the FIA could just shrug their shoulders. That would be the easy option however they are trying to stick a plaster of the gaping wound of their 2021 plans torn to bits. Another 18 months of this will put plenty off.

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Big Tea
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:47 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:31 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:24 pm
How can anyone categorically state that this makes it worse. How about we actually try it first. It if fails then we call all call it a failure.
There is equal proof it will not work, none.
There is 70 years of background though that it works as it is

Edit, sorry, sounds more aggressive than I intended.
So we do nothing and have Mercedes processions then. With the greatest of respect this is what I’m not getting.

The FIA removed party modes and it didn’t fix it. Let’s put our cards on the table I’m a Hamilton fan and I’ve never hidden that but by god it’s currently boring.

Like I say the FIA could just shrug their shoulders. That would be the easy option however they are trying to stick a plaster of the gaping wound of their 2021 plans torn to bits. Another 18 months of this will put plenty off.
It was the same in the Schumacher years, it went away
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Restomaniac
Restomaniac
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:02 pm
Restomaniac wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:47 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:31 pm


There is equal proof it will not work, none.
There is 70 years of background though that it works as it is

Edit, sorry, sounds more aggressive than I intended.
So we do nothing and have Mercedes processions then. With the greatest of respect this is what I’m not getting.

The FIA removed party modes and it didn’t fix it. Let’s put our cards on the table I’m a Hamilton fan and I’ve never hidden that but by god it’s currently boring.

Like I say the FIA could just shrug their shoulders. That would be the easy option however they are trying to stick a plaster of the gaping wound of their 2021 plans torn to bits. Another 18 months of this will put plenty off.
It was the same in the Schumacher years, it went away
True however we’re in a different world now. It’s now a world where everyone and everything wants your attention, where you can watch what you want when you want. Being boring will make people just naff off and do something else.

Like I say since 2004 (16 years ago) Box sets, Netflix, social media, etc.

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Phil
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Re: Reverse grid gimmick is go!

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I’ll just repeat myself again, fot those that missed it:

To overtake successfully, you need a time delta between cars. The bigger that delta, the better.

If all cars qualify according to their performance, but in reverse order, you are creating trains of cars unable to overtake each other, because the faster cars behind will not have a large enough delta to overtake the (slightly) slower car ahead of them.

This succession will carry to the front, where the slowest car will hold up the entire pack.

Good example are the last 20 laps of Monza where slower cars held up sligtly quicker ones for the entire race.

If that is supposed to be more exciting than what we have now, people really need a good shake and a bucket full of cold water to go with it.
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