2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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selvam_e2002
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Not sure why did Mercedes make those costly mistake. may be to cover both Ham and bottas? It seem the car is good. As Max said, if any one in the filed sit on that car can will champion ship.

I am afraid of Russel could be next Hulk.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:55 am
e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:34 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:14 am
Bottas had more problems on his car than just old hards, besides being slow that could have contributed to his lack of pace. He was still in the box for eternity burning his breaks.
Maybe those were mitigating factors, but to me it looks like the tires just fell off compared to the cars around him (which had fresh sets IIRC). He pitted at lap 63 and the race restarted on lap 69. He was on pace with Stroll up until lap 77 when Sainz passed him and he just fell back. Sainz' and Ricciardo's passes were on traction (vs braking) so it could be rear tires going off?
Bottas pitted for new hards on lap 49.
Ocon didn't pit for second stop. First pit stop at 41 for new hards.
Stroll didn't pit for second stop. Fist pit stop at 42 for new mediums.
Sainz pits for seond stop at 55 for new mediums.
Ric pits for second stop at 55 for new hards.
Albon pits for second stop at 62 for new softs.
Kvyat pits for second stop at 53 for new hards.

So essentially, only Albon had much fresher tyres compared to Bottas. Otherwise, he had tyres which were at worst 6 laps older compared to others while he was on the fastest car! 6 laps on such a short circuit on hard compound tyres with less than half the tank. So, tyres isn't a good excuse. By Mercedes' own admission in the first stint, the tyre wear was far less than they had anticipated because of which they went "target + 20" in the first stint. Bottas wasn't up to the job.

It also invalidates the theory that, after SC, the Mercedes cars were under any threat from behind, certainly not from Perez who had pitted on lap 47 for new hards.
Thankyou. I thought it was just me scratching my head with this line of thinking. If I may also add, if Bottas’ tyres were SO bad why didn’t he keep losing places? It’s far more likely he just screwed up. Which takes us right back to Russell pitting twice more AND having a puncture but only being a few seconds behind which isn’t a great look.

If I were Russell I’d hope that Hamilton is fit and well next weekend. Simply put he’s delivered the message loud and clear (as heart breaking as it was) so why give Bottas a right to reply? He need not worry the race wins will come.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:55 am
e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:34 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:14 am
Bottas had more problems on his car than just old hards, besides being slow that could have contributed to his lack of pace. He was still in the box for eternity burning his breaks.
Maybe those were mitigating factors, but to me it looks like the tires just fell off compared to the cars around him (which had fresh sets IIRC). He pitted at lap 63 and the race restarted on lap 69. He was on pace with Stroll up until lap 77 when Sainz passed him and he just fell back. Sainz' and Ricciardo's passes were on traction (vs braking) so it could be rear tires going off?
Bottas pitted for new hards on lap 49.
Ocon didn't pit for second stop. First pit stop at 41 for new hards.
Stroll didn't pit for second stop. Fist pit stop at 42 for new mediums.
Sainz pits for seond stop at 55 for new mediums.
Ric pits for second stop at 55 for new hards.
Albon pits for second stop at 62 for new softs.
Kvyat pits for second stop at 53 for new hards.

So essentially, only Albon had much fresher tyres compared to Bottas. Otherwise, he had tyres which were at worst 6 laps older compared to others while he was on the fastest car! 6 laps on such a short circuit on hard compound tyres with less than half the tank. So, tyres isn't a good excuse. By Mercedes' own admission in the first stint, the tyre wear was far less than they had anticipated because of which they went "target + 20" in the first stint. Bottas wasn't up to the job.

It also invalidates the theory that, after SC, the Mercedes cars were under any threat from behind, certainly not from Perez who had pitted on lap 47 for new hards.
It was probably an issue with his brakes, since he stayed stationary so long on the pit stop,glazed brakes are damn near impossible to overcome

e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:55 am
e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:34 am
Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 4:14 am
Bottas had more problems on his car than just old hards, besides being slow that could have contributed to his lack of pace. He was still in the box for eternity burning his breaks.
Maybe those were mitigating factors, but to me it looks like the tires just fell off compared to the cars around him (which had fresh sets IIRC). He pitted at lap 63 and the race restarted on lap 69. He was on pace with Stroll up until lap 77 when Sainz passed him and he just fell back. Sainz' and Ricciardo's passes were on traction (vs braking) so it could be rear tires going off?
Bottas pitted for new hards on lap 49.
Ocon didn't pit for second stop. First pit stop at 41 for new hards.
Stroll didn't pit for second stop. Fist pit stop at 42 for new mediums.
Sainz pits for seond stop at 55 for new mediums.
Ric pits for second stop at 55 for new hards.
Albon pits for second stop at 62 for new softs.
Kvyat pits for second stop at 53 for new hards.

So essentially, only Albon had much fresher tyres compared to Bottas. Otherwise, he had tyres which were at worst 6 laps older compared to others while he was on the fastest car! 6 laps on such a short circuit on hard compound tyres with less than half the tank. So, tyres isn't a good excuse. By Mercedes' own admission in the first stint, the tyre wear was far less than they had anticipated because of which they went "target + 20" in the first stint. Bottas wasn't up to the job.

It also invalidates the theory that, after SC, the Mercedes cars were under any threat from behind, certainly not from Perez who had pitted on lap 47 for new hards.
Truth be told, a huge part of me just thinks its a demotivated Bottas giving way to pressure and simply losing it towards the end of the race. I just feel bad for him in that case. :mrgreen:

The train of Sainz, Ric and Albon having much fresher tires could explain their pass on Bottas though. And how Bottas had fresher tires than Stroll also explains how he was able to keep up but not have the race craft to actually pass Stroll.

I do stand by my assertion that pitting at that point was the best choice for Mercedes though. The call to pit was a few seconds before they passed the pit lane, which means they do not know what the teams behind them would do. If they don't pit, and the rest of the cars behind them do, the bunched up field could catch them up in a few laps (like what eventually happened to Bottas). If they do pit, then some might elect to stay out to maintain track position (like what Perez, Ocon and Stroll did). But they at least had the track position/distance to cover those guys off and emerge in front.

The safe move was IMO to pit. They simply botched it. If the stop had gone according to plan, they would have been 1-2 with a fresh set of tires to cover off all possibilities.

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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:27 am
I do stand by my assertion that pitting at that point was the best choice for Mercedes though. The call to pit was a few seconds before they passed the pit lane, which means they do not know what the teams behind them would do. If they don't pit, and the rest of the cars behind them do, the bunched up field could catch them up in a few laps (like what eventually happened to Bottas). If they do pit, then some might elect to stay out to maintain track position (like what Perez, Ocon and Stroll did). But they at least had the track position/distance to cover those guys off and emerge in front.

The safe move was IMO to pit. They simply botched it. If the stop had gone according to plan, they would have been 1-2 with a fresh set of tires to cover off all possibilities.
One needs to understand that, Mercedes strategy team isn't the best one. It's in fact the Red Bull which is absolutely sharp in race situations. Hamilton has bailed James out on a number of occasions when the call was bad, but he made it work. It's that gift of absolute golden grit which Mercedes need to find in their next star, not just a bloody fast and prodigious racer. It takes a lot of experience to get there.
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e30ernest
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:47 am
e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:27 am
I do stand by my assertion that pitting at that point was the best choice for Mercedes though. The call to pit was a few seconds before they passed the pit lane, which means they do not know what the teams behind them would do. If they don't pit, and the rest of the cars behind them do, the bunched up field could catch them up in a few laps (like what eventually happened to Bottas). If they do pit, then some might elect to stay out to maintain track position (like what Perez, Ocon and Stroll did). But they at least had the track position/distance to cover those guys off and emerge in front.

The safe move was IMO to pit. They simply botched it. If the stop had gone according to plan, they would have been 1-2 with a fresh set of tires to cover off all possibilities.
One needs to understand that, Mercedes strategy team isn't the best one. It's in fact the Red Bull which is absolutely sharp in race situations. Hamilton has bailed James out on a number of occasions when the call was bad, but he made it work. It's that gift of absolute golden grit which Mercedes need to find in their next star, not just a bloody fast and prodigious racer. It takes a lot of experience to get there.
To that I would agree. I could imagine Hamilton in this race would have said no to that pit stop if he thinks his tires were up for it.

I do get the logic of Merc's stop this time around though. We could have been singing their praises today if only they didn't botch it.

Restomaniac
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Moore77 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:47 am
e30ernest wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 7:27 am
I do stand by my assertion that pitting at that point was the best choice for Mercedes though. The call to pit was a few seconds before they passed the pit lane, which means they do not know what the teams behind them would do. If they don't pit, and the rest of the cars behind them do, the bunched up field could catch them up in a few laps (like what eventually happened to Bottas). If they do pit, then some might elect to stay out to maintain track position (like what Perez, Ocon and Stroll did). But they at least had the track position/distance to cover those guys off and emerge in front.

The safe move was IMO to pit. They simply botched it. If the stop had gone according to plan, they would have been 1-2 with a fresh set of tires to cover off all possibilities.
One needs to understand that, Mercedes strategy team isn't the best one. It's in fact the Red Bull which is absolutely sharp in race situations. Hamilton has bailed James out on a number of occasions when the call was bad, but he made it work. It's that gift of absolute golden grit which Mercedes need to find in their next star, not just a bloody fast and prodigious racer. It takes a lot of experience to get there.
True but you learn on the job. I’ll give you 2 examples.
1:-China 2007. Hamilton should have (and today would have) put his foot down but didn’t as he was young and inexperienced which ultimately cost him a WDC.
2:-Brazil 2008. Putting on those rain tyres was an awful risk which ultimately paid off and won him a WDC but more by dumb luck than anything. If Hamilton had stayed on drys he would have probably won it anyway by how much further down the road he would have been so the heavy rain wouldn’t have become an issue. I’m not sure today’s Hamilton would have gone with the tyre change decision.

So twice in 2 seasons McLaren cost him one and very nearly cost him another WDC.

My point is that today’s Lewis Hamilton has only got there and become today’s experienced driver due to those things. You’re not going to find a young lightening quick driver with those experiences already baked in.

Sorry to the Mods if I’m talking about Hamilton here but it’s in reference to Russell not questioning the team. He was in no position to do so as a was a guest driver and lacked the experience to say ‘NO’.

Fulcrum
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:35 am
Love the excuses from Bottas and some people over here about "him matching Russell" or being quicker in the second stint but "unable to pass" because of the characteristics of the Merc!

Wake up and smell the coffee. Russell beat Bottas in an alien car instead of being trumped by him. And, he passed Bottas in the same car that is apparently unable to pass in traffic.
I wrote a long post about Bottas somewhere, probably that Hamilton thread (how many championships/wins he'd get and when), and my opinion has not changed.

Outside of Kovalainen, Bottas is the weakest F1 teammate Hamilton has ever had. To be fair, Hamilton has had an excellent collection of teammates, so Bottas is by no means a bad driver.

However, Bottas is flattered by the car, which is typically on rails all weekend. Whenever the car is slightly more difficult to drive, e.g. 2018, he's nowhere. Hamilton won 11 races while Bottas won 0.

Bottas' qualifying pace, while good, usually proves to be better than what he can achieve over a race distance. My guess is, Hamilton has such a comfortable margin over Bottas he can afford to skew his setup to preference the race. He gives Bottas 1-2 tenths in qualifying to give himself 3-4 tenths per lap in the second half of race stints.

Russell did an amazing job this weekend, but the true test will come in Abu Dhabi, if Hamilton does not return. A much more representative track, and he'll have to manage the circumstances and emotions of this race.

wesley123
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Diesel wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:31 am
wesley123 wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:17 am
Diesel wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 12:07 am
Not finished watching the highlights, but I'm out. First Leclerc wrecks the race for the win takes himself and Verstappen out. Now Mercedes just brain fart completely. Just draw the names out of a hat or something, what a joke.

These are meant to be the best drivers and the best teams in the world, today F1 should be ashamed.
You literally only named two things and based the whole fields performance on that, wth.

Turns out people can make mistakes, who knew?
Most people just benefitted from the DNFs & mayhem ahead of them. What the heck is Albon doing in that Red Bull? Where was Norris all race? It was just such an unsatisfying race, not my kind of motorsport. Some people seem to get a kick out of random upside down races, I certainly don't.

EDIT: To cap it all off, it was the photocopy car that won the race, legal or whatever the hell the judgment was earlier in the year, not a great look for F1 if you ask me.
So?
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Bottas didn’t get new hards at all!!

They pitted him right after they sound out Russell on some of Bottas’ yellow tires. So they started to fit Bottas his yellow set (which already took long) then realized the error, removed the yellows and refitted the whites he just came in on and had him finish the race on them.

Bottas too was royally screwed. If he had stayed out instead of this pit stop cock up he would have won.

Russell is better then Bottas (Ofcourse) but he too was done badly by the team mistake.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:07 am

Gutted that then when Aitken neutralized the race that Mercedes completely and utterly destroyed their race by doing pitstops that never, never, never ever were ever even remotely neccesary and would put them out of position anyway,
and then the chaos was complete. Yeah, Bottas was on the recieving end there too, as both George and Valterri got shafted by their own team but atleast that makes it still a bit 'fair'.


The pit stop were 100% neccesary. Bottas in the end didnt change his tyres, and he went backwards. And it wouldnt put them out of position. When they double stacked, they had over 30 seconds to the car behind. If the cars behind them all pit, and they stay out, they are screwed. They had to pit, they had the time. They wouldn't be out of position, and they would be at the front with a decent set of medium tyres. It was 100% the right call to make.
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:15 am
Bottas didn’t get new hards at all!!

They pitted him right after they sound out Russell on some of Bottas’ yellow tires. So they started to fit Bottas his yellow set (which already took long) then realized the error, removed the yellows and refitted the whites he just came in on and had him finish the race on them.

Bottas too was royally screwed. If he had stayed out instead of this pit stop cock up he would have won.

Russell is better then Bottas (Ofcourse) but he too was done badly by the team mistake.
I don't think he would have won if he stayed out. As you said, he didn't get new tires, and due to that, he wasn't doing all too well after the restart. Why would he have fared better if he didn't stop - he would be in front, but on the same crappy tires. Sure, he probably wouldn't fall back as much as he did now, but I doubt he'd win.

tangodjango
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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Schuttelberg wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 6:35 am
Love the excuses from Bottas and some people over here about "him matching Russell" or being quicker in the second stint but "unable to pass" because of the characteristics of the Merc!

Wake up and smell the coffee. Russell beat Bottas in an alien car instead of being trumped by him. And, he passed Bottas in the same car that is apparently unable to pass in traffic.
To be fair it's a fraction of the excuses paraded out for Albon and mostly the washed up incompetent Vettel.
Bottas needs to go for 2022 otherwise it's just a tragedy for Russel, almost as big a tragedy as Vettel replacing Perez.
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Moore77
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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NathanOlder wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:20 am
Manoah2u wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 2:07 am

Gutted that then when Aitken neutralized the race that Mercedes completely and utterly destroyed their race by doing pitstops that never, never, never ever were ever even remotely neccesary and would put them out of position anyway,
and then the chaos was complete. Yeah, Bottas was on the recieving end there too, as both George and Valterri got shafted by their own team but atleast that makes it still a bit 'fair'.


The pit stop were 100% neccesary. Bottas in the end didnt change his tyres, and he went backwards. And it wouldnt put them out of position. When they double stacked, they had over 30 seconds to the car behind. If the cars behind them all pit, and they stay out, they are screwed. They had to pit, they had the time. They wouldn't be out of position, and they would be at the front with a decent set of medium tyres. It was 100% the right call to make.
Look at the example of Perez Vs Sainz/Ric. Perez pit for his only stop and went on new hards, on lap 47. Both Sainz and Ric pitted on lap 55 for Medium (Sai) and Hard (Ric). Their tyres were 8 laps younger than Perez when the race restarted on 69.
From lap 69 to 79, Perez was doing high 0:56s whereas Sainz and Ric were doing high 0:58s and then moved to 0:57s.
From lap 79 to the end, Perez, Sainz and Ric, all were doing low 0:57s.

Unlike Perez, who was initially running in the mid field and making progress while burning his tyres before SC, both Mercedes were running in clear air, managing their tyres well.

So there is nothing to say, if Mercedes wouldn't have stopped in SC, they would have screwed. Without the stop too, Mercedes probably had handy pace to handle cars behind with fresh rubber.
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Juzh
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Re: 2020 Sakhir Grand Prix - Sakhir, Dec 04 - 06

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 1:19 am
LM10 wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 9:17 pm
To the people telling Mercedes can't win without Lewis - what are you trying to do? Those claims sound stupid and you're belittling Russell's exceptional performance today. What a shame.

He actually was on his way to easily win that. If it was not for the most stupid pit stop I've seen in a while. Why would you change some fresh Hards with less than half of the race remaining?
Lewis would not have come in and the puncture would not have affect Lewis. He already won a race on three wheels. So a slow puncture is nothing for him. Yes. I am dead serious.
You've lost it completely now mate. Seek some help.

Sieper wrote:
Mon Dec 07, 2020 10:15 am
Bottas didn’t get new hards at all!!

They pitted him right after they sound out Russell on some of Bottas’ yellow tires. So they started to fit Bottas his yellow set (which already took long) then realized the error, removed the yellows and refitted the whites he just came in on and had him finish the race on them.

Bottas too was royally screwed. If he had stayed out instead of this pit stop cock up he would have won.
Those hard tires were still 2 laps younger than perez' for example. He really should be second all things considered, instead he dropped down the field, while perez overtook everyone and f''ked off into the distance.