2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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The numbers released for the 2026 goals are still puzzling me. So we have a 350kw MGU-K, 75kg/hr fuel and no more MGU-H.

From the topics here we have speculated current numbers:

ICE: 600kw
MGU-K: 120kw
Total: 720kw
ERS Deployment: approx 80-100s/lap

The MGU-H recovers about 6-10 MJ/lap, so we will see a major reduction in deployment, without it.

My estimates:

ICE: 450kw
MGU-K: 350kw
Total: 800kw
ERS Deployment: approx 10-15s/lap

Maybe they would limit the output power of the new MGU-K to 175kw deployment, 350kw recovery. We would get longer deployment.

ICE: 450kw
MGU-K: 175kw
Total: 625kw
ERS Deployment: approx 20-30s/lap

625kw/850hp with lighter cars and less drag? Could be possible right?

J.A.W.
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Zynerji wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:06 am
Maybe shave the engine 95kilo by moving the current v6 to NA and 20k rpm?
No way known will the current V6 hack 20,000rpm! (Not even MotoGP go there nowadays).

Certainly with no chance of fuel-efficiency/reliability/longevity at anywhere near that rpm...
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

haza
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Slim chance but what are the odds that the fw-14 run on carbon neutral fuel Sunday will make the fia realise that you can still use “dinosaur engines” on carbon neutral fuels they’d save money, weight and would please the fans

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Just thinking about it. If the new power units have more “flexible” power from the electric motor, which they have to use for quite a limited time, we’ll see a lot of time difference between a fast lap and a defending lap (as in, for defence you’ll use it in different places). This could mean that the field will bunch up in groups and if someone gets away, it will be hard to catch them with another driver on your tail.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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If you took away ERS from the current units, you would save 20+kg on the PU, +25+kg for the battery, quite a bit from the ERS cooling packages and wiring. At least 50kg saving.

Turbine and compressor might lose some weight to reduce lag.

Current high efficiency combustion systems could be maintained - not sure if they could be used in high rpm N/A engines.

Ditching the MGUH in favour of a bigger MGUK will, likely, not save weight, and may increase it if the battery size is increased too.

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:04 am

Ditching the MGUH in favour of a bigger MGUK will, likely, not save weight, and may increase it if the battery size is increased too.
Agreed, but the goal was to reduce complexity - dropping the MGUH makes the PU's dramatically less complex.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 5:04 am
Current high efficiency combustion systems could be maintained - not sure if they could be used in high rpm N/A engines.
AFAIK high RPM is mutually exclusive with high efficiency. As well as N/A, since the turbo inherently recovers otherwise wasted energy from the exhaust, even if it's not used to drive and MGU-H

Though I would think the without the H bringing up the turbo speed into an ideal rpm there would be an inherent efficiency hit anyway.

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FW17
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Maybe without the MGU H the engine might use even more boot and still bridge the gap left

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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NA engines are a thing of the past in formula one. The MGU-H ups the turbo efficiency considerably. It will be a big loss in formula one.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:06 am
AFAIK high RPM is mutually exclusive with high efficiency.....
lower rpm means a bigger engine
NA especially
bigger engines have bigger combustion chambers so must dump more heat to coolant

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:03 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:06 am
AFAIK high RPM is mutually exclusive with high efficiency.....
lower rpm means a bigger engine
NA especially
bigger engines have bigger combustion chambers so must dump more heat to coolant
Can't you offset much of that with modern ceramic coatings in the piston crown, and chamber area?

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 10:09 am
Tommy Cookers wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:03 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 7:06 am
AFAIK high RPM is mutually exclusive with high efficiency.....
lower rpm means a bigger engine - NA especially
bigger engines have bigger combustion chambers so must dump more heat to coolant
Can't you offset much of that with modern ceramic coatings in the piston crown, and chamber area?
the "much" suggested seemingly isn't enough as ....
the smaller higher rpm engine also has these coatings ... though also using a record high AFR to dilute in-cylinder heat

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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T.B.H. I am not happy with 'new manufactures', Read international car companies, wanting to simplify engines before they come to F1. If there is an excuse to test new ideas it is in F1.

They are not looking at it this way, they just see free advertising.

What would be the feasibility of allowing a team to run a third car with an engine of a different type as long as it fits a compatibility formula? There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:53 am
There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.
I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:23 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:53 am
There have been youtube articles and papers of dozens of new designs but none seem to actually become reality. we are wasting the opportunity to test something that could ( have ) replaced the otto cycle ICE with something more efficient and have an alternative to Electric or Hydrogen, which seems to be the Hobsons choice now.
I very much doubt so. Anything ICE won't go much past 50%, in ideal circumstances.
(Also, hydrogen is pretty much vaporware. Way too wasteful and problematic to produce, handle and use.)
The 2025/2026 rules are proposing using synthetic fuel. Which requires hydrogen to be produced in order to create the synthetic hydrocarbon. Though the handling and using side of the equation is easier than using straight hydrogen.