2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
johnny comelately
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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This might ruin the day for the purists (of this thread) but it shows the antithesis of the modern efficiency drive. 3:1 AFR; where is the air?; the struggle for spark- hence 44 amp mags and why most blow ups happen

J.A.W.
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:42 am
This might ruin the day for the purists (of this thread) but it shows the antithesis of the modern efficiency drive. 3:1 AFR; where is the air?; the struggle for spark- hence 44 amp mags and why most blow ups happen
Does the burn got hot enough to use as fuel the non-O2 % particles of air?

Isn't the spark analogous to 'glow-plug' use in a CI mill, & once going hard, it burns on, chemical process-wise?

(I sure know the sonic-wave blast & eye-watering gaseous stench hits real hard too, its a real VISCERAL motorsport!).
"Well, we knocked the bastard off!"

Ed Hilary on being 1st to top Mt Everest,
(& 1st to do a surface traverse across Antarctica,
in good Kiwi style - riding a Massey Ferguson farm
tractor - with a few extemporised mod's to hack the task).

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:42 am
This might ruin the day for the purists (of this thread) but it shows the antithesis of the modern efficiency drive. 3:1 AFR; where is the air?; the struggle for spark- hence 44 amp mags and why most blow ups happen
Last time I checked, the oxygen content of nitromethane enables it to burn with much less atmospheric oxygen than conventional fuels.

So it’s not really comparable to petrol. The reason they use giant 44 amp magnetos is its very very hard to get nitromethane burning.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 12:10 pm
johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:42 am
This might ruin the day for the purists (of this thread) but it shows the antithesis of the modern efficiency drive. 3:1 AFR; where is the air?; the struggle for spark- hence 44 amp mags and why most blow ups happen
Last time I checked, the oxygen content of nitromethane enables it to burn with much less atmospheric oxygen than conventional fuels.
So it’s not really comparable to petrol. The reason they use giant 44 amp magnetos is its very very hard to get nitromethane burning.
the stoichiometric AFR is freakishly low (1.7:1) with nitromethane
ie you can burn more nitro in your cylinder of air than with any other fuel
that's why it gives such high power (about 2.3 x gasoline's) - despite nitro's very low heating value per kg

only running richer than stoichiometric will the fuel use any of its own oxygen
this saves the ICE doing the flow work to breathe in that amount of gaseous oxygen and the associated rest of the air
so gives more power
combustible hydrogen and carbon monoxide are dumped in the exhaust gas - but burn when reaching the atmosphere

you need a very high spark voltage (eg 85 kV) so a very large diameter magneto (to get enough spacing for isolation)

Brits Hawthorn and Moss used plenty nitro in 1952/53? WDC (run to F2 rules) etc to help their underpowered Brit cars
it got Hawthorn his job driving WDC Ferraris
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on Fri Jul 29, 2022 1:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

johnny comelately
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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"where is the air?" was a rhetoric question, this was my field on one wheel drives before semi retiring.
It is a fascinating world, I know some F1 engineers have visited the show to learn launch technology.
Keep digging and then that perspective almost contradicts the current F1 engines, an amazing spectrum

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organic
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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https://www.fia.com/news/world-motor-sp ... -2022-2023
THE WORLD MOTOR SPORT COUNCIL APPROVES F1 2026 POWER UNIT REGULATIONS AND UPDATED 2022-2023 TECHNICAL REGULATIONS
Well it is finally confirmed. Some announcements imminent I expect

Here is the detailed information about the 2026 power unit regulations

A power unit cost cap is also outlined in the above document


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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Sounds fairly reasonable although why not get rid of the turbo at this point it’s pointless and leads to turbo lag (without mguh) for no reason. Will be interesting to see how it plays out with the cost cap and new entrants.
Last edited by RedNEO on Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ENGINE TUNER
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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With the mguh gone, where will the electrical energy to power the now more powerful 350kW mguk come from? So basically they will just be burning fuel to make electrical energy. An absurd development, they go from capturing wasted energy, to no longer capturing it and creating more for the sake of producing electrical energy for a shorter KERS boost.
Last edited by ENGINE TUNER on Sun Aug 21, 2022 4:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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3x increase in MGUK output. No mention of ES capacity/weight. ICE output reduced approximately 1/3.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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The increase in MGUK power will be welcome to mitigate lag or teams will find other clever ways to do that and save energy probably.

Do hope it will be net weight loss with less fuel but depends how much beefier the mguk and battery will have to be.
Last edited by RedNEO on Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Cs98
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Feel like these new cars will be braking A LOT with the MGU-K to regenerate enough energy to run that 350kW electrical engine. Won't need disc brakes on the rear axle.

No test bench advantage for RBPT/Porsche and AUDI. However, 10 million extra in budget for the first two years, 5 for the third.

Bill
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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with these regulation f1 is becoming a spec series fia will effectively telling engine manufacturer's how to build their pu.f1 used to be the pinnacle of motorsport now it is highly prescriptive.the likes of porsche like these regulation, despite charging high fees for their "premium "product they sell they dont have confidence that they can build a better engine than the like of Honda and Renault who are perceived as lesser and not so high tech.why will a new manufacture join f1 the batteries will be spec the engine too biofuel are not practical in the real world ,they is effectively nothing to attract anyone.The romanticism and allure of f1 that we had under Bernie is no more, team used to come and go so too where engine manufactures .you could dream take you chance succeed or mostly likely fail ,but know f1 is a cartel under legacy teams Andretti would not join, under Bernie it would has been easy.f1 is all money now .

morefirejules08
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Cs98 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:46 pm
Feel like these new cars will be braking A LOT with the MGU-K to regenerate enough energy to run that 350kW electrical engine. Won't need disc brakes on the rear axle.

No test bench advantage for RBPT/Porsche and AUDI. However, 10 million extra in budget for the first two years, 5 for the third.
Wait, Porsche and Audi are getting an extra £25 mil to develop their PU?

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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organic wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:31 pm
Well it is finally confirmed. Some announcements imminent I expect

Here is the detailed information about the 2026 power unit regulations
More restricted, more prescribed, remove this, remove that. I don't think it could be more bland and pointless.
It pleases no-one.
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:11 pm
With the mguh gone, where will the electrical energy to power the now 50% more powerful 350kW mguk come from? So basically they will just be burning fuel to make electrical energy. An absurd development, they go from capturing wasted energy, to no longer capturing it and creating more for the sake of producing electrical energy for a shorter KERS boost.
It seems like it. There's no way they can generate even the same amount with braking.
I wonder though. Is there anything stopping them from recovering energy from mechanically coupling to the turbo? (Not sure if it's even viable, with the big difference in engine/turbo rpm.)

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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RedNEO wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:53 pm
Sounds fairly reasonable although why not get rid of the turbo at this point it’s pointless and leads to turbo lag (without mguh) for no reason. Will be interesting to see how it plays out with the cost cap and new entrants.
They can compensate with the K for the turbo lag.