2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:17 pm
It seems like it. There's no way they can generate even the same amount with braking.
I wonder though. Is there anything stopping them from recovering energy from mechanically coupling to the turbo? (Not sure if it's even viable, with the big difference in engine/turbo rpm.)
In the video linked to above the announcer states a return of turbo lag, so presumably turbo compounding is not on the table. It would go against the cost savings intention. While gears and shafts may be cheaper than MGUs, they aren't free. Traditional turbocharging is implied however will this be via one or two turbochargers? Excessively long turboshafts would contribute to inertia, so would a split turbo arrangement remain if constrained to one TC? As well, will the 'parallel to crankshaft centerline' rule remain, or will the turbo(s) be freely positionable? And no word of hot vees neither.

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I am deeply dissatisfied with the new regulations, absolutely nothing interesting about them, and looks more like a spec engine

tpe
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Next step is to actually call for tenders for the block part of the engine.
Regardless if MGU-H is complex, it's logical.
I don't see any logic here....

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:41 pm
I am deeply dissatisfied with the new regulations, absolutely nothing interesting about them, and looks more like a spec engine
If it sounds better than the current vacuum cleaner PU's, that'll at least be some improvement.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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Blackout
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Symonds said the 2026 fuel energy density and octane level will be similar to today (so between 44,6 and 45MJ/kg AFAIK), and knowing that 2026 fuel flow will be between 75 and 80kg/h, these 2026 engines will have to be around of 43% efficient (50% today) to produce the desired power level. Will it be easy or not so easy without MGUH?

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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Has the fuel flow rate been announced? The pdf linked above lists an estimated power of 400 kW although no flow rate nor fuel capacity limit. I'm estimating 2/3 reduction of ICE power based on available info. The combustion efficiency should be maintainable since the compressor, injection and spark tech seem to remain unchanged. The total fuel consumption which seems to determine the 50% efficiency claim is a factor of the hybrid system, which remains.

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Holm86
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:09 pm
Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:41 pm
I am deeply dissatisfied with the new regulations, absolutely nothing interesting about them, and looks more like a spec engine
If it sounds better than the current vacuum cleaner PU's, that'll at least be some improvement.
Yes, but I don't see how they should sound better? It's the same configuration, and same RPM range. Might be slightly louder due to the lack of MGUH, but I doubt they'll sound any better

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:41 pm
I am deeply dissatisfied with the new regulations, absolutely nothing interesting about them, and looks more like a spec engine
Bill wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:56 pm
with these regulation f1 is becoming a spec series fia will effectively telling engine manufacturer's how to build their pu.
While the engine will be a pseudo-"spec" part, the hybrid power unit electrical system is where the FIA wants the competition as far as I know.

The hybrid system is still part of the power unit and FIA specifically says there will be lots of freedoms in the "socially relevant" electrical part of the power unit and that is where the FIA want the competition to lie. :)

So the FIA are only dictating the ICE, the legacy part, the "socially irrelevant" part, not the entire power unit, not by any means.

djos wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:09 pm
If it sounds better than the current vacuum cleaner PU's, that'll at least be some improvement.
There's no MGUH (so less energy extracted from the exhaust) but there's also lower fuel flow rate (so there's less energy in the exhaust in the first place), so it is possibly much of a muchness. A pleasing engine sound is obviously not the goal of these regulations, which is fine, the FIA and the competitors have their priorities.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:49 pm
Has the fuel flow rate been announced?
The F1TV video says 70-80 kg/hr. :?:

tpe wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:36 pm
Next step is to actually call for tenders for the block part of the engine.
Is that speculation, or is it confirmed that the bottom-end of the engine will be a spec part from Gibson or Mechachrome or somebody? :?: If so, that would be logical given the competition is meant to be on the electrical side.

The FIA are saying something about standardised crankshaft, pistons etc but it seems a bit vague. Does that mean fully spec, or rather just open source, common design but made by the individual manufacturers?

CaribouBread
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Do we have any ballpark numbers for the current PU's sustained power figures throughout a race distance? There is no way that the claims that 2026 PUs will retain current power levels accurate right? Maybe peak power but how are they expecting it to work out over a race distance? Would be a damn shame if they do all this work to figure out better aero for following just to be foiled by excessive battery management in the race.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Blackout wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:25 pm
Symonds said the 2026 fuel energy density and octane level will be similar to today (so between 44,6 and 45MJ/kg AFAIK), and knowing that 2026 fuel flow will be between 75 and 80kg/h, these 2026 engines will have to be around of 43% efficient (50% today) to produce the desired power level. Will it be easy or not so easy without MGUH?
That 50% is supposed to be the ICE on its own, right? So the MGU-H should be irrelevant to this, it would only increase the total efficiency.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:17 pm
organic wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:31 pm
Well it is finally confirmed. Some announcements imminent I expect

Here is the detailed information about the 2026 power unit regulations
More restricted, more prescribed, remove this, remove that. I don't think it could be more bland and pointless.
It pleases no-one.
ENGINE TUNER wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 6:11 pm
With the mguh gone, where will the electrical energy to power the now 50% more powerful 350kW mguk come from? So basically they will just be burning fuel to make electrical energy. An absurd development, they go from capturing wasted energy, to no longer capturing it and creating more for the sake of producing electrical energy for a shorter KERS boost.
It seems like it. There's no way they can generate even the same amount with braking.
I wonder though. Is there anything stopping them from recovering energy from mechanically coupling to the turbo? (Not sure if it's even viable, with the big difference in engine/turbo rpm.)
mguh has no relevance just like how everyone’s saying NA’s have no relevance

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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While the FIA/FI owners managed to placed the two manufacturers from under the same roof (Audi/Porsche) by forcing the new engine rules for 2026, two engine manufacturers who only time will tell how fast they will be out of F1, It, the FIA/F1 also managed to keep the grid of cars at the same number of cars. So the only achievements will be in ADDED biggish names.

gruntguru
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:49 am
Blackout wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:25 pm
Symonds said the 2026 fuel energy density and octane level will be similar to today (so between 44,6 and 45MJ/kg AFAIK), and knowing that 2026 fuel flow will be between 75 and 80kg/h, these 2026 engines will have to be around of 43% efficient (50% today) to produce the desired power level. Will it be easy or not so easy without MGUH?
That 50% is supposed to be the ICE on its own, right? So the MGU-H should be irrelevant to this, it would only increase the total efficiency.
Nope - 50% includes the MGUH.
je suis charlie

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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gruntguru wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:56 am
mzso wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 4:49 am
Blackout wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:25 pm
Symonds said the 2026 fuel energy density and octane level will be similar to today (so between 44,6 and 45MJ/kg AFAIK), and knowing that 2026 fuel flow will be between 75 and 80kg/h, these 2026 engines will have to be around of 43% efficient (50% today) to produce the desired power level. Will it be easy or not so easy without MGUH?
That 50% is supposed to be the ICE on its own, right? So the MGU-H should be irrelevant to this, it would only increase the total efficiency.
Nope - 50% includes the MGUH.
In turbo-compound mode?

MGUH directly feeding MGUK.