2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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An interesting feature in all of this is that they chose not to increase the battery pack weight. A 350 kW motor with a 20kg battery pack could be of some interest to OEMs. A big performance boost to any road going ICE. Maybe that explains Audi's entry.
djos wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:40 pm
The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.
Surely no one is suggesting to use the low power density fuel cells that you reference in your counter-arguments.

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djos
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vorticism wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:06 am
djos wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:40 pm
The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.
Surely no one is suggesting to use the low power density fuel cells that you reference in your counter-arguments.
MZSO seems to think they are a great idea:
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 1:27 pm

But yet again: fuel cells doesn't just mean hydrogen. More suitable to F1 would be SOFCs or other direct carbon fuel cells. With a more practical fuel.
Solid Oxide Fuel Cells

Solid oxide fuel cells are made up of very thin layer of ceramics. The ceramics used in SOFCs do not become electrically and ionically active until they reach 500-1000 ºC (1060-2120 ºF) and the high temperature enables them to oxidize nearly any fuel, including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, biofuels, hydrogen and even coal gas. The ceramic construction needed to provide stability and reliability makes SOFCs more expensive than other fuel cells. The solid electrolyte is made from a ceramic material called Yttria-Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ). Since the operating temperature is so high, SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand. As such, they are best suited for large applications although research continues to develop lower temperature SOFCs for use in vehicles.
I'm merely pointing out that none of the current FC technologies are anywhere near being practical for use in motorsport applications. I'm not against FC tech at all, I'm just a realist. Personally, I'd like to see FC tech replace Diesel engines in Ships and Freight Trains as soon as possible.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 4:10 pm
CaribouBread wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:13 am
mzso wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:35 pm

How do they expect 1000HP then, without putting in the energy into the system? The whole system will be less efficient to begin with...
Perhaps for 2 seconds per lap we'll get that power...
The 1000 hp figure seems to be the expected peak output, but they won't be able to sustain that for more than a lap at a time (my guess), and when the K runs out of juice they'll be trundling around with 650hp till they recoup enough. Lowest average power output throughout the race distance in quite some time and the highest weight, will be a riot to watch :? :lol:
I fail to see how they could sustain 1000 hp for a whole lap.
Maximum deployment would be 13MJ on a lap (start with 4MJ, recover the allowed 9MJ and use that as well). That equates to a maximum possible deployment of 37.1s of the MGUK.

Maximum deployment during normal race running would be 9MJ (that which can be recovered during a lap). That equates to a maximum possible deployment of 25.7s of the MGUK.

And the maximum deployment in one go is the storage capacity of the battery - 4MJ. That lasts 11.7s at full power.

If they manage to get above 300km/h they won't have full power either, as the allowed MGUK power reduces 5kW for every km/h over 300km/h, until 340km/h, after which it is a maximum of 150kW.

Currently they don't have the maximum possible power for very long. But they have close to maximum power for most of a lap, thanks to the MGUH.

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Currently they have ‘maximum power’ (ICE+K) for 33.33 seconds of a lap. That 33.33 seconds at full power can be stretched during the lap time wise by programed selection of full deployment at targeted points during a lap thanks to ‘H’. Although ‘H’ to ‘K’ is unlimited, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited by the ERS rules.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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djos wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:40 pm
The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.

https://www.gencellenergy.com/news/comp ... hnologies/
You just wave away anything with some simplistic generalization. You're stuck in bias loop man.

You should be thinking of what might be, instead of what is. I think this that I linked a bunch of times is a good starting point for development.

mzso
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djos wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 12:19 am
Solid Oxide Fuel Cells

Solid oxide fuel cells are made up of very thin layer of ceramics. The ceramics used in SOFCs do not become electrically and ionically active until they reach 500-1000 ºC (1060-2120 ºF) and the high temperature enables them to oxidize nearly any fuel, including gasoline, diesel, natural gas, biofuels, hydrogen and even coal gas. The ceramic construction needed to provide stability and reliability makes SOFCs more expensive than other fuel cells. The solid electrolyte is made from a ceramic material called Yttria-Stabilized Zirconia (YSZ). Since the operating temperature is so high, SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand. As such, they are best suited for large applications although research continues to develop lower temperature SOFCs for use in vehicles.
I'm merely pointing out that none of the current FC technologies are anywhere near being practical for use in motorsport applications. I'm not against FC tech at all, I'm just a realist. Personally, I'd like to see FC tech replace Diesel engines in Ships and Freight Trains as soon as possible.
You're not actually providing counter evidence though. Managing high temperatures is borderline trivial for F1. The combustion temperature in F1 engines is much higher than this. I see the temperature requirements as a non-issue.

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djos
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mzso wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 5:14 pm
djos wrote:
Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:40 pm
The fuel is irrelevant, all fuel cell types have major limitations that preclude them from being used in high end motor racing applications.

https://www.gencellenergy.com/news/comp ... hnologies/
You just wave away anything with some simplistic generalization. You're stuck in bias loop man.

You should be thinking of what might be, instead of what is. I think this that I linked a bunch of times is a good starting point for development.
No I’m not, I think the tech is super cool, but you are ignoring obvious show stoppers like this:
SOFCs require significant time to reach operating temperature and are slow to respond to changes in electricity demand.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Tue Aug 30, 2022 10:54 am
Currently they have ‘maximum power’ (ICE+K) for 33.33 seconds of a lap. That 33.33 seconds at full power can be stretched during the lap time wise by programed selection of full deployment at targeted points during a lap thanks to ‘H’. Although ‘H’ to ‘K’ is unlimited, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited by the ERS rules.
I think you are contradicting yourself a bit.

You state 33.3s at full power then say the time at full power can be stretched using the MGUH.

Hypotetically, if the MGUH produces 60kW on average when the ICE is at full throttle, and the lap time is 90s and the time at full throttle is 66.7% or 60s, the energy recovered per laps is 5.6MJ (2MJ from the MGUK and 60kW * 60s = 3.6MJ from the MGUH). That would give time at full power as 5600kJ/120kW = 46.7s. That is a good portion of the 60s per lap at full throttle.

We do know that the MGUH usually stops feeding the MGUK at the end of the straights, that's when the warning lights flash, and the MGUH fills the battery.

46.7s is also 10s more time at full power than the 2026 PU rules will allow (start lap with 4MJ stored, recover an additional 9MJ during the lap, using a total of 13MJ).


Also, note that the current PUs have maximum power when ES drives the MGUK and the MGUH is not recovering energy from the turbine (may even be driving the turbo).

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Could be the way I expressed myself sounds contradictory. When I said that deployment time can be stretched over a lap I didn’t meant the mandated maximum deployment time per lap (33.33 seconds) could be exceeded. What I meant was that by deploying time portions of the mandated maximum deployment time at selected track point during a lap, the ‘H’ makes it possible to deploy all around the lap on the portions of the lap where the driver is on the throttle. This because as I said, while the ‘H’ to ‘K’ is listed as unlimited (same as ‘H’ to ‘ES’, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited per lap both from ‘ES as well as from ‘H’. The expression (nowadays we can deploy all around the lap) certainly boosts some peoples imaginations.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 6:24 am
... This because as I said, while the ‘H’ to ‘K’ is listed as unlimited (same as ‘H’ to ‘ES’, ‘K’ to crankshaft is still limited per lap both from ‘ES as well as from ‘H’. The expression (nowadays we can deploy all around the lap) certainly boosts some peoples imaginations.
IMO the above seems to be incorrect (your post yesterday wasn't incorrect))

there is no mandated limit on the energy per lap supplied directly (not via the ES) by the H machine to the K machine
so there is no mandated limit per lap on the energy supplied by the K machine to the crankshaft

saviour stivala
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Yes 'H' to 'k' is unlimited but 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:35 am
.... 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.
it's not limited (by rule) in time per lap

it's only limited by rule of 4 MJ of energy from ES per lap (equivalent to 120 kW for 33.3 sec if all energy is from ES)
it's not limited by rule on energy from H per lap (there's no rule) - so lap energy is 'unlimited' (by any rules)

so lap K-motoring time is 'unlimited' (by any rules)

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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saviour stivala wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 10:35 am
Yes 'H' to 'k' is unlimited but 'K' to crankshaft is limited both in power deployed as will as time per lap.
The MGUK is limited to 120kW to the crankshaft.

But the energy to the crankshaft is not limited.

The energy from the ES to the MGUK is 4MJ. The energy from the MGUK to the ES is 2MJ.

The energy from the MGUH is unlimited to both the ES and MGUK.

Obviously the MGUH to MGUK power is limited by the MGUK power, if it could produce that much.

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vorticism
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Hence Honda's high cycle frequency H to K power transmission.

yamahasho
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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So everyone's thinking they're going to do something like this to counteract the turbo lag issue:

Image

Been used plenty of times in production cars. Or against the regs?

Or perhaps a anti-lag (which I call a blown turbo) by dumping fuel in on deceleration but this sounds implausible because it wastes fuel but who knows.
Supercharged Ford Taurus SHO 5spd. Sold.