2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
CaribouBread
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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There are some budding rumors (Motorsport Weekly/Radio LeMans) about Audi's intention to not continue with the Sauber partnership. =D> =D> :lol: Imagine if we're stuck with this weirdly compromised engine reg just for VAG to not even show up to the playground.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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That's typical.

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Mogster
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I think there’s probably a dawning realisation that it’s going to be very difficult to catch up with Merc, Ferrari, RBR, Mclaren.

Maybe buying an existing back of the grid team is starting to look like the wrong decision. Andretti GM Gainbridge can build, spend and test whatever they want until they join the grid. Sauber/Audi are constrained by the cost cap and capex financial rules. If Audi had bit the bullet and started their own team they could have poured money in outside of F1s financial fair play structure. Just a thought.

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Juzh
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Some new comments from Tombazis on the engine side of things for 2026+

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reve ... /10557347/
Talk of the 2026 regulation plans earlier this year was dominated by concerns from Red Bull in particular of there being potential for big problems on the horizon.


With the ICE element of the power unit going from around 550-560kw down to 400kw, and the battery element jumping from 150kw to 350kw, it was obvious that putting the future engines in the current cars would lead to battery power running out quite early on the straights.

And even with lighter cars, if drag was too high, places like Monza could be a challenge and force drivers to do weird stuff – like changing down gears on the straight – to try to get some recharging going.

Tombazis thinks those worries were unfounded and based on early simulation models that were far away from where things are at right now.

"These were comments that were probably a bit premature, because we hadn't completed the work yet," he said.

"We never believed that was a disaster scenario, because we knew that there were solutions.

"We believe that the combination of low drag on the cars, with the way that energy can be recovered or deployed, achieves a speed profile of these cars which is very similar to the current cars.

"So the cars won't be reaching the top speed in the middle of the straight and then degrading or anything like that. That's not going to be the case."

Tombazis said the FIA is clear that they want cars to be running hard into corners so drivers are heavy on the brakes – and not lifting and coasting and taking it easy on entry.

That will be more of a challenge at some venues with long straights, like Monza and Spa, but special allowances could be made at such places.

"There's some tweaks on the energy side of the engine that will achieve the correct characteristics," he said.
He basically contradicts himself by first saying there will be no problems with the energy and then in the next sentence suggesting and unprecedented rules adjustments for certain tracks where sensible energy management will be difficult, if not impossible. Basically almost confirming RBs theory to certain extent.

Even so, how exactly would this tweak work? Problem lies in energy recuperation itself, therefore only possible solution I can see is reduction in total mgu-k power output to much lower levels so battery can last longer, hardly a solution in my opinion.

wuzak
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Juzh wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm
Some new comments from Tombazis on the engine side of things for 2026+

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reve ... /10557347/
Talk of the 2026 regulation plans earlier this year was dominated by concerns from Red Bull in particular of there being potential for big problems on the horizon.


With the ICE element of the power unit going from around 550-560kw down to 400kw, and the battery element jumping from 150kw to 350kw, it was obvious that putting the future engines in the current cars would lead to battery power running out quite early on the straights.

And even with lighter cars, if drag was too high, places like Monza could be a challenge and force drivers to do weird stuff – like changing down gears on the straight – to try to get some recharging going.

Tombazis thinks those worries were unfounded and based on early simulation models that were far away from where things are at right now.

"These were comments that were probably a bit premature, because we hadn't completed the work yet," he said.

"We never believed that was a disaster scenario, because we knew that there were solutions.

"We believe that the combination of low drag on the cars, with the way that energy can be recovered or deployed, achieves a speed profile of these cars which is very similar to the current cars.

"So the cars won't be reaching the top speed in the middle of the straight and then degrading or anything like that. That's not going to be the case."

Tombazis said the FIA is clear that they want cars to be running hard into corners so drivers are heavy on the brakes – and not lifting and coasting and taking it easy on entry.

That will be more of a challenge at some venues with long straights, like Monza and Spa, but special allowances could be made at such places.

"There's some tweaks on the energy side of the engine that will achieve the correct characteristics," he said.
He basically contradicts himself by first saying there will be no problems with the energy and then in the next sentence suggesting and unprecedented rules adjustments for certain tracks where sensible energy management will be difficult, if not impossible. Basically almost confirming RBs theory to certain extent.

Even so, how exactly would this tweak work? Problem lies in energy recuperation itself, therefore only possible solution I can see is reduction in total mgu-k power output to much lower levels so battery can last longer, hardly a solution in my opinion.
The problem is also battery size.

Can't store enough energy to use on those long straights.

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Juzh
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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wuzak wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 2:25 pm
Juzh wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:35 pm
Some new comments from Tombazis on the engine side of things for 2026+

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/reve ... /10557347/
Talk of the 2026 regulation plans earlier this year was dominated by concerns from Red Bull in particular of there being potential for big problems on the horizon.


With the ICE element of the power unit going from around 550-560kw down to 400kw, and the battery element jumping from 150kw to 350kw, it was obvious that putting the future engines in the current cars would lead to battery power running out quite early on the straights.

And even with lighter cars, if drag was too high, places like Monza could be a challenge and force drivers to do weird stuff – like changing down gears on the straight – to try to get some recharging going.

Tombazis thinks those worries were unfounded and based on early simulation models that were far away from where things are at right now.

"These were comments that were probably a bit premature, because we hadn't completed the work yet," he said.

"We never believed that was a disaster scenario, because we knew that there were solutions.

"We believe that the combination of low drag on the cars, with the way that energy can be recovered or deployed, achieves a speed profile of these cars which is very similar to the current cars.

"So the cars won't be reaching the top speed in the middle of the straight and then degrading or anything like that. That's not going to be the case."

Tombazis said the FIA is clear that they want cars to be running hard into corners so drivers are heavy on the brakes – and not lifting and coasting and taking it easy on entry.

That will be more of a challenge at some venues with long straights, like Monza and Spa, but special allowances could be made at such places.

"There's some tweaks on the energy side of the engine that will achieve the correct characteristics," he said.
He basically contradicts himself by first saying there will be no problems with the energy and then in the next sentence suggesting and unprecedented rules adjustments for certain tracks where sensible energy management will be difficult, if not impossible. Basically almost confirming RBs theory to certain extent.

Even so, how exactly would this tweak work? Problem lies in energy recuperation itself, therefore only possible solution I can see is reduction in total mgu-k power output to much lower levels so battery can last longer, hardly a solution in my opinion.
The problem is also battery size.

Can't store enough energy to use on those long straights.
Battery capacity limit is more arbitrary than recovery capabilities, which I guess will be maxed out and not possible to adjust with a few lines of rules. Batteries are over-sized in any case, right? So they could eat into this space, at possible cost to reliability.

CHT
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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This guy did a good job explaining what about the come and 2026 is likely to be a significant step down from the current PU


Tommy Cookers
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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CHT wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2023 12:05 am
This guy did a good job explaining ..... 2026 is likely to be a significant step down from the current PU
he seems the first to acknowledge that present F1 fuel has unlimited octane number (as I pointed out over 10 years)

testing of fuel 'octane' ie detonation resistance (by the mandated RON and MON tests) is subject to distortion ...
fuels with higher evaporative cooling than the mandated reference fuel (iso-octane) thereby test as 'higher octane'
the distortion can be eliminated by appropriate heating
RON temperature is different to MON's so real-fuel RON & MON are unequal but reference fuel RON & MON are equal
this distortion amounts to 'free octane' available to fuel blends
the benefits (usually with rich mixtures) have been accessed before and ever since the first 'pump fuel' rules in F1

but F1 hybrid ICE power comes from limited fuel quantity not the normal unlimited fuel - limited boost,volume, &rpm
the limited fuel quantity gives more power, if the ICE's designed around leaner/cooler running via more air mass-flow
even with the latest technologies this costs more in fluid & mechanical losses ....
but saves much more via much reduced energy loss in dumping much less heat to coolant & exhaust
so more of the energy is available in-cylinder to be converted to work
'free octane' isn't used - lean mixture (& in-combustion fueling adjustment) anyway allows higher compression ratio etc

increased-alcohol (or other 'oxygenate') fuel for 2026 will (afaik) give a wider explosive range ....
allowing even leaner running & helping offset efficiency lost due to the elimination of the MGU-H turbine
the 2026 limit of 102 RON seems high enough