2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm
toraabe wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
A slightly bigger engine v4 means less moving parts than a v6. The mgu h should remain but the other manufacturers has to offer it for sale. Nicd cost cap.. A inline engine need a support frame. Hence a v4 is a better solution
A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Why not use the existing inline-four 2.0 from Super Formula, DTM and SuperGT? There are already six engines designed to this formula (Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Audi) which could have a hybrid system added.
This was more or less the original idea in 2010, to make a “world championship standerd” 1.6 4 cylinder engine that would be used in various FIA championships in different configurations with/without turbocharging, electrification, etc. Mercedes and Renault were on board but Ferrari used their veto.

toraabe
toraabe
12
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm
toraabe wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
A slightly bigger engine v4 means less moving parts than a v6. The mgu h should remain but the other manufacturers has to offer it for sale. Nicd cost cap.. A inline engine need a support frame. Hence a v4 is a better solution
A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Just the camahft and piping, but a v4 will e a structural part of the car. Better gravity is also benificial. A inline four would require a support frame.. It will not by nature be stiff enough

toraabe
toraabe
12
Joined: Thu Oct 09, 2014 9:42 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm
toraabe wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
A slightly bigger engine v4 means less moving parts than a v6. The mgu h should remain but the other manufacturers has to offer it for sale. Nicd cost cap.. A inline engine need a support frame. Hence a v4 is a better solution
A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Why not use the existing inline-four 2.0 from Super Formula, DTM and SuperGT? There are already six engines designed to this formula (Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Audi) which could have a hybrid system added.
That is going backwards... A F1 engine should be unique

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

toraabe wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:54 pm
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm
toraabe wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
A slightly bigger engine v4 means less moving parts than a v6. The mgu h should remain but the other manufacturers has to offer it for sale. Nicd cost cap.. A inline engine need a support frame. Hence a v4 is a better solution
A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Just the camahft and piping, but a v4 will e a structural part of the car. Better gravity is also benificial. A inline four would require a support frame.. It will not by nature be stiff enough
Double the camshafts, double the cylinder heads, double the fuel rails, double the exhaust headers vs a slightly odd shaped rear support frame.

I agree that a V4 is a much nicer solution, but is nearer the cost of a V6 then a 4L.

User avatar
mclaren111
277
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/07/23 ... our-sport/

The crux of what Tombazis said was that technical innovation in F1 was no longer relevant and that F1 and the FIA want the innovative focus to be biofuel and finance from 2022 onwards.
:x :x

Is it really valid for F1’s greatest mandate to now be sustainability, be it environmental or financial, at the expense of the very reasons the sport was founded on in the first place?

:x :x

Now that F1 has the hands of a publicly floated global media company with shareholder returns to answer for around its neck, I fear the sport is choking and forgetting what it is and where it came from.

Technical Innovation in F1:
From 13 May 1950 – 31 December 2021.
Rest In Peace. You will be dearly missed.

Sad State of Affairs Indeed... :( :(

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:03 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/07/23 ... our-sport/

The crux of what Tombazis said was that technical innovation in F1 was no longer relevant and that F1 and the FIA want the innovative focus to be biofuel and finance from 2022 onwards.
:x :x

Is it really valid for F1’s greatest mandate to now be sustainability, be it environmental or financial, at the expense of the very reasons the sport was founded on in the first place?

:x :x

Now that F1 has the hands of a publicly floated global media company with shareholder returns to answer for around its neck, I fear the sport is choking and forgetting what it is and where it came from.

Technical Innovation in F1:
From 13 May 1950 – 31 December 2021.
Rest In Peace. You will be dearly missed.

Sad State of Affairs Indeed... :( :(
can't you just open a thread where you can demand return of the V12 or something instead of being grumpy over here?

mzso
mzso
61
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 1:52 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:23 pm
can't you just open a thread where you can demand return of the V12 or something instead of being grumpy over here?
I would call it spammy at this point.

User avatar
JordanMugen
82
Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:36 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

toraabe wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:56 pm
That is going backwards... A F1 engine should be unique
Why? :)

They are purpose-built racing engines, they are lightweight, they are efficient. They seem perfectly adequate. 600hp ICE + unlimited ERS (350hp+) would provide a good architecture.

Jolle wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 2:10 pm
I agree that a V4 is a much nicer solution, but is nearer the cost of a V6 then a 4L.
The inline-four racing engines already exist, and the structural problem is already solved in Super Formula I guess (I assume they use some kind of girdle, I can't find a picture). :)

The DTM/Super GT engines seem very attractive. Perhaps some cumulative power cap can be applied to the 2.0 turbos so Red Bull, AER/Mazda, or anyone else who also wants to build one (or adapt existing in Mazda's case) can get to the required level easily.

Attention could turn to freedoms -- unlimited output? -- on the electrical side of it, which is the more relevant side.

wuzak
wuzak
447
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:26 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Jolle wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 1:38 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm


A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Why not use the existing inline-four 2.0 from Super Formula, DTM and SuperGT? There are already six engines designed to this formula (Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Audi) which could have a hybrid system added.
This was more or less the original idea in 2010, to make a “world championship standerd” 1.6 4 cylinder engine that would be used in various FIA championships in different configurations with/without turbocharging, electrification, etc. Mercedes and Renault were on board but Ferrari used their veto.
Ferrari didn't have to use their veto.

The V6 was preferred over the L4 by a few of the teams, including Red Bull. Once VW pulled out, the L4 was gone.

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

I like the idea of a standard power output ICE combined with some competition on electric parts.

User avatar
jjn9128
771
Joined: Tue May 02, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:03 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/07/23 ... our-sport/

The crux of what Tombazis said was that technical innovation in F1 was no longer relevant and that F1 and the FIA want the innovative focus to be biofuel and finance from 2022 onwards.
:x :x

Is it really valid for F1’s greatest mandate to now be sustainability, be it environmental or financial, at the expense of the very reasons the sport was founded on in the first place?

:x :x

Now that F1 has the hands of a publicly floated global media company with shareholder returns to answer for around its neck, I fear the sport is choking and forgetting what it is and where it came from.

Technical Innovation in F1:
From 13 May 1950 – 31 December 2021.
Rest In Peace. You will be dearly missed.

Sad State of Affairs Indeed... :( :(
You made me rewatch that godawful launch video again.. I can't see where Tombazis says that. Actual innovation has been missing from F1 for about a decade though - since they banned exhaust blowing and F-ducts.
#aerogandalf
"There is one big friend. It is downforce. And once you have this it’s a big mate and it’s helping a lot." Robert Kubica

User avatar
mclaren111
277
Joined: Sun Apr 06, 2014 9:49 am
Location: Shithole - South Africa

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

jjn9128 wrote:
Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:35 am
mclaren111 wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 3:03 pm
https://www.grandprix247.com/2021/07/23 ... our-sport/

The crux of what Tombazis said was that technical innovation in F1 was no longer relevant and that F1 and the FIA want the innovative focus to be biofuel and finance from 2022 onwards.
:x :x

Is it really valid for F1’s greatest mandate to now be sustainability, be it environmental or financial, at the expense of the very reasons the sport was founded on in the first place?

:x :x

Now that F1 has the hands of a publicly floated global media company with shareholder returns to answer for around its neck, I fear the sport is choking and forgetting what it is and where it came from.

Technical Innovation in F1:
From 13 May 1950 – 31 December 2021.
Rest In Peace. You will be dearly missed.

Sad State of Affairs Indeed... :( :(
You made me rewatch that godawful launch video again.. I can't see where Tombazis says that. Actual innovation has been missing from F1 for about a decade though - since they banned exhaust blowing and F-ducts.

It was at a different interview I think...

The FIA is regulating F1 to Death... :(

And Liberty is following the Woke Brigade to scam More Money... :( :(

User avatar
Stu
Moderator
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2019 9:05 am
Location: Norfolk, UK

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm
toraabe wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:13 pm
A slightly bigger engine v4 means less moving parts than a v6. The mgu h should remain but the other manufacturers has to offer it for sale. Nicd cost cap.. A inline engine need a support frame. Hence a v4 is a better solution
A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Why not use the existing inline-four 2.0 from Super Formula, DTM and SuperGT? There are already six engines designed to this formula (Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Audi) which could have a hybrid system added.
I have been banging the ‘ultimate development of the FIA world engine’ for way too long now (since the idea was pushed in favour of the V6’s - 2012??), I still cannot understand why they moved away from the concept. It would also have played nicely with Sportscars/GT, by moving them both back to ‘stock block’ categories.
From what I can recall both Ferrari and Mercedes threatened to leave F1 if the went for the I4 architecture?
Perspective - Understanding that sometimes the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

Jolle
Jolle
132
Joined: Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:58 pm
Location: Dordrecht

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Stu wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 7:11 pm
JordanMugen wrote:
Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:17 am
Jolle wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:25 pm


A inline 4 has much less moving parts then a V4 and is a lot easier in construction (with only one exhaust side instead of two), and only needs two simple structures on the side as a support... I don't see your logic.
Why not use the existing inline-four 2.0 from Super Formula, DTM and SuperGT? There are already six engines designed to this formula (Mercedes, Toyota, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Audi) which could have a hybrid system added.
I have been banging the ‘ultimate development of the FIA world engine’ for way too long now (since the idea was pushed in favour of the V6’s - 2012??), I still cannot understand why they moved away from the concept. It would also have played nicely with Sportscars/GT, by moving them both back to ‘stock block’ categories.
From what I can recall both Ferrari and Mercedes threatened to leave F1 if the went for the I4 architecture?
Mercedes was all for the 4L engine, as that was perfect marketable for their high volume hot hatches.They even did early work on the 4l

NL_Fer
NL_Fer
82
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2014 8:48 am

Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

Post

Mercedes was all for i4 until they saw the advantage they would have with the split turbo inside a V6. It was pretty easy to convince the fia after Audi backed out.

I doubt current manufacturers want to start from scratch with an i4 and spend another bilion on ICE.