2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

All that has to do with the power train, gearbox, clutch, fuels and lubricants, etc. Generally the mechanical side of Formula One.
Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:38 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:44 pm
mclaren111 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:37 pm
Hell Yes... :D :D
Well, I like the sound of direct drive EVs. So let's have that:
https://youtu.be/TGob7Gs44ZA?t=41

There, now I also made my sound based genius argument.
Never said it was a good technical argument, but I think sound is a big part of F1. It adds to the drama and atmosphere.
I also watch a lot of football, and when there was no noise from the spectators during covid, it killed all the atmosphere of the game.

You already have your alternative, if you like the sound of EV's, just watch formula zero ...

I'm pretty sure a big part of the users in here, or F1 fans in general like engine sounds, and you are in the minority that doesn't care ...
The thing about the sound is that, unless you're at the track watching it in person, the sound is whatever the TV producers want you to hear. They could, if they wished, overlay "more noise" / "better noise" on the TV feed and people would sit there and think "yeah, they sound good". Only people at track side know what the cars really sound like, and it's not nearly so anodyne as the current TV coverage suggests. Yes, it's not as loud as the old N/A engines - turbos take out a lot of sound energy for example, and you don't get the artillery fire-like bangs on the over run because that's wasting fuel - but having been near lots of the various F1 engines over the years, the less deafening hybrids are more pleasant to watch track side. I've had a headache by mid-race back in the 3.5 V10 days, and having watched historics with DFVs, they were quite unpleasant after a while too.

Here's a thing - quite often one saw people track side with hearing protection back in the "good old days". That says a lot, I think, and it's not all good.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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mclaren111
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:40 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:38 pm
mzso wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:44 pm

Well, I like the sound of direct drive EVs. So let's have that:
https://youtu.be/TGob7Gs44ZA?t=41

There, now I also made my sound based genius argument.
Never said it was a good technical argument, but I think sound is a big part of F1. It adds to the drama and atmosphere.
I also watch a lot of football, and when there was no noise from the spectators during covid, it killed all the atmosphere of the game.

You already have your alternative, if you like the sound of EV's, just watch formula zero ...

I'm pretty sure a big part of the users in here, or F1 fans in general like engine sounds, and you are in the minority that doesn't care ...
The thing about the sound is that, unless you're at the track watching it in person, the sound is whatever the TV producers want you to hear. They could, if they wished, overlay "more noise" / "better noise" on the TV feed and people would sit there and think "yeah, they sound good". Only people at track side know what the cars really sound like, and it's not nearly so anodyne as the current TV coverage suggests. Yes, it's not as loud as the old N/A engines - turbos take out a lot of sound energy for example, and you don't get the artillery fire-like bangs on the over run because that's wasting fuel - but having been near lots of the various F1 engines over the years, the less deafening hybrids are more pleasant to watch track side. I've had a headache by mid-race back in the 3.5 V10 days, and having watched historics with DFVs, they were quite unpleasant after a while too.

Here's a thing - quite often one saw people track side with hearing protection back in the "good old days". That says a lot, I think, and it's not all good.

So how do we get these TV Stations & Tracks to increase the sound ??

Most commentators talks rubbish most of the time anyway... And they miss half the action on TV because of talking too much...

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:51 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:40 am
Holm86 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:38 pm


Never said it was a good technical argument, but I think sound is a big part of F1. It adds to the drama and atmosphere.
I also watch a lot of football, and when there was no noise from the spectators during covid, it killed all the atmosphere of the game.

You already have your alternative, if you like the sound of EV's, just watch formula zero ...

I'm pretty sure a big part of the users in here, or F1 fans in general like engine sounds, and you are in the minority that doesn't care ...
The thing about the sound is that, unless you're at the track watching it in person, the sound is whatever the TV producers want you to hear. They could, if they wished, overlay "more noise" / "better noise" on the TV feed and people would sit there and think "yeah, they sound good". Only people at track side know what the cars really sound like, and it's not nearly so anodyne as the current TV coverage suggests. Yes, it's not as loud as the old N/A engines - turbos take out a lot of sound energy for example, and you don't get the artillery fire-like bangs on the over run because that's wasting fuel - but having been near lots of the various F1 engines over the years, the less deafening hybrids are more pleasant to watch track side. I've had a headache by mid-race back in the 3.5 V10 days, and having watched historics with DFVs, they were quite unpleasant after a while too.

Here's a thing - quite often one saw people track side with hearing protection back in the "good old days". That says a lot, I think, and it's not all good.

So how do we get these TV Stations & Tracks to increase the sound ??

Most commentators talks rubbish most of the time anyway... And they miss half the action on TV because of talking too much...
Perhaps people should ask the TV companies to increase the noise. It's not a difficult thing for them to do.

As for the commentators - agreed. Most of these talking heads just talk without thinking / observing the action. Croft is a total pain in the backside and ruins races for me.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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Zynerji
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Not as badly as James Allen did tho...😒

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:54 am
mclaren111 wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:51 am
Just_a_fan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 8:40 am

The thing about the sound is that, unless you're at the track watching it in person, the sound is whatever the TV producers want you to hear. They could, if they wished, overlay "more noise" / "better noise" on the TV feed and people would sit there and think "yeah, they sound good". Only people at track side know what the cars really sound like, and it's not nearly so anodyne as the current TV coverage suggests. Yes, it's not as loud as the old N/A engines - turbos take out a lot of sound energy for example, and you don't get the artillery fire-like bangs on the over run because that's wasting fuel - but having been near lots of the various F1 engines over the years, the less deafening hybrids are more pleasant to watch track side. I've had a headache by mid-race back in the 3.5 V10 days, and having watched historics with DFVs, they were quite unpleasant after a while too.

Here's a thing - quite often one saw people track side with hearing protection back in the "good old days". That says a lot, I think, and it's not all good.

So how do we get these TV Stations & Tracks to increase the sound ??

Most commentators talks rubbish most of the time anyway... And they miss half the action on TV because of talking too much...
Perhaps people should ask the TV companies to increase the noise. It's not a difficult thing for them to do.

As for the commentators - agreed. Most of these talking heads just talk without thinking / observing the action. Croft is a total pain in the backside and ruins races for me.
Most TV channels have choice of multiple audio channels these days, that would be a possibility.
Personally I am of the other opinion. I love the 'sound', not the 'noise'. Quality not quantity, which spoils it.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

NL_Fer
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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These hybrids do sound awesome on trackside. Very technical. They should use better mics and transmitters to make that hearable on tv. Only thing I miss is the reverb around the track, sound echoing between the grandstands.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:02 pm
Then watch FE... Already sounds like this... :D :D
It doesn't. FE has that repulsive straight-cut gear whine.
(Nor does it sound like a fart as you said before.)

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Holm86 wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 10:38 pm

I'm pretty sure a big part of the users in here, or F1 fans in general like engine sounds, and you are in the minority that doesn't care ...
Based on nothing in particular. Even if it were true it wouldn't mean anything on what should F1 use.
Otherwise everyone's whining about "pinnacle of motorsport" and "innovation". But when it comes to engines the loud mouths forget about it and whine about the opposite, dinosaur technology.

It think it would be potentially more entertaining if on on-board footages (with well placed microphones) I could hear every little noise the car makes from the appropriate direction, as the driver drives.

mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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mclaren111 wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:51 am
So how do we get these TV Stations & Tracks to increase the sound ??
Move a slider?
mclaren111 wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:51 am
Most commentators talks rubbish most of the time anyway... And they miss half the action on TV because of talking too much...
That's what multiple audio tracks are for. Choose the one without commentary.

nmoleiro
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2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Don’t get me wrong, real good posts on the subject, but a bit off topic IMO...

On topic I would like to see front electric motors even if just for recovery, a bigger mug-k for instance 200~250 KW with a bit smaller ICE, I think current power levels are ok.
But bigger battery and the weigh that using current technology comes with it make me think about total car weigh should not become even higher than what we already have...

sp8472
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2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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I would like to see the next generation of power unity’s be way more open to innovation. Is hybrid the best and only way? I find the current hybrid approach to be very limiting in terms of innovation for a sustainable future. I don’t know if it’s the best solution, it may be. But perhaps there is a better way that we have not found yet? Is that not the spirit of F1. Find the best most efficient solution to the problem?

I would suggest regulations around using a maximum amount of energy, rather than specifying how you use that energy. Allow manufactures to consider new and innovative solutions. This may have greater relevance to a transport future. In this scenario you have a maximum amount of energy, say the same amount as found in the 110kg of fuel currently used. How you ‘spend’ this is up to you.

Do you invest it in battery store to get you through the race, with energy recovery, but perhaps being a bit slower (the turtle). Do you invest in a very efficient but small ICE that you you can run at full throttle. Or how about a larger ICE that you may have to do fuel saving, but could be super powerful at certain times (the hare). There could be hydrogen fuel cells or combinations that we have not thought of.

This could lead to a wide variety of solutions to the power unit and create a race that could be very exciting. One where the different characteristics of the engines play roles at different times. On corners some could be better, than others on straights. As well as changes during different times in the race.

This could stop the DRS train of equally powered engines not being able to pass each other. I don’t deny that as eventually things would likely end up being the same one elegant solution, but it could be a lot of fun getting there. Who knows that solution might be something that could also actually become relevant to our future?


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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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sp8472 wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:36 am
I would like to see the next generation of power unity’s be way more open to innovation. Is hybrid the best and only way? I find the current hybrid approach to be very limiting in terms of innovation for a sustainable future. I don’t know if it’s the best solution, it may be. But perhaps there is a better way that we have not found yet? Is that not the spirit of F1. Find the best most efficient solution to the problem?

I would suggest regulations around using a maximum amount of energy, rather than specifying how you use that energy. Allow manufactures to consider new and innovative solutions. This may have greater relevance to a transport future. In this scenario you have a maximum amount of energy, say the same amount as found in the 110kg of fuel currently used. How you ‘spend’ this is up to you.

Do you invest it in battery store to get you through the race, with energy recovery, but perhaps being a bit slower (the turtle). Do you invest in a very efficient but small ICE that you you can run at full throttle. Or how about a larger ICE that you may have to do fuel saving, but could be super powerful at certain times (the hare). There could be hydrogen fuel cells or combinations that we have not thought of.

This could lead to a wide variety of solutions to the power unit and create a race that could be very exciting. One where the different characteristics of the engines play roles at different times. On corners some could be better, than others on straights. As well as changes during different times in the race.

This could stop the DRS train of equally powered engines not being able to pass each other. I don’t deny that as eventually things would likely end up being the same one elegant solution, but it could be a lot of fun getting there. Who knows that solution might be something that could also actually become relevant to our future?


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I would also like to see innovation, especially in areas where it can be passed on to road use.
For instance, allowing development of capacitors alongside the battery, but but not only is it tightly regulated, but the best advantage, weight, is nullified.

F1 seems focused on saving cost by making everyone go down the same development route rather than allowing side branches that could well be saving in future years and used to transfer to road cars. As we have seen though, the 'cost' included is usually far outweighed at the factory and in bench testing
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

Jolle
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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nmoleiro wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:51 am
Don’t get me wrong, real good posts on the subject, but a bit off topic IMO...

On topic I would like to see front electric motors even if just for recovery, a bigger mug-k for instance 200~250 KW with a bit smaller ICE, I think current power levels are ok.
But bigger battery and the weigh that using current technology comes with it make me think about total car weigh should not become even higher than what we already have...
The 25kg for the battery are from 10 years ago already. With current tech they could possibly double the capacity without changing the weight much. As for the power of the ICE, the start weight can be adjusted easy then, just slim down the current-ish V6 to 80kg/h and a max fuel of 85 kg. Already a weighed saved of at least 25 kg.

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Big Tea
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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Jolle wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:21 am
nmoleiro wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:51 am
Don’t get me wrong, real good posts on the subject, but a bit off topic IMO...

On topic I would like to see front electric motors even if just for recovery, a bigger mug-k for instance 200~250 KW with a bit smaller ICE, I think current power levels are ok.
But bigger battery and the weigh that using current technology comes with it make me think about total car weigh should not become even higher than what we already have...
The 25kg for the battery are from 10 years ago already. With current tech they could possibly double the capacity without changing the weight much. As for the power of the ICE, the start weight can be adjusted easy then, just slim down the current-ish V6 to 80kg/h and a max fuel of 85 kg. Already a weighed saved of at least 25 kg.
That is more or less what I am saying. No point developing more power or higher capacity as you can not reduce the weight anyway. Same goes for overall weight of the car, you are stuck with it, even if it ends up as ballast.
A usefull development course completely cut off.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

mzso
mzso
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Re: 2025/2026 Hybrid Powerunit speculation

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sp8472 wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 2:36 am
I would like to see the next generation of power unity’s be way more open to innovation. Is hybrid the best and only way? I find the current hybrid approach to be very limiting in terms of innovation for a sustainable future. I don’t know if it’s the best solution, it may be. But perhaps there is a better way that we have not found yet? Is that not the spirit of F1. Find the best most efficient solution to the problem?

I would suggest regulations around using a maximum amount of energy, rather than specifying how you use that energy. Allow manufactures to consider new and innovative solutions. This may have greater relevance to a transport future. In this scenario you have a maximum amount of energy, say the same amount as found in the 110kg of fuel currently used. How you ‘spend’ this is up to you.

Do you invest it in battery store to get you through the race, with energy recovery, but perhaps being a bit slower (the turtle). Do you invest in a very efficient but small ICE that you you can run at full throttle. Or how about a larger ICE that you may have to do fuel saving, but could be super powerful at certain times (the hare). There could be hydrogen fuel cells or combinations that we have not thought of.

This could lead to a wide variety of solutions to the power unit and create a race that could be very exciting. One where the different characteristics of the engines play roles at different times. On corners some could be better, than others on straights. As well as changes during different times in the race.

This could stop the DRS train of equally powered engines not being able to pass each other. I don’t deny that as eventually things would likely end up being the same one elegant solution, but it could be a lot of fun getting there. Who knows that solution might be something that could also actually become relevant to our future?


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This would be interesting, but they'll never go for it. They'd point at cost. Ignoring the fact that they spent billions on stuff that no-one will use outside F1. They gave a free pass to engines in the cost cap...
Which I think is a huge mistake, because they'll just keep burning money of brute forcing things instead of coming up with creative ideas.

At least if they determined keeping an ICE they should go with something that's just changing the engine configuration and turbo, recovery, which is extremely boring and pointless. Maybe they should just ban typical piston engines, and see who uses what sort of rotary or opposed piston engines, or whatever else that's out there. (Thou I wouldn't expect to see wave disk engines, or such.)