2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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wowgr8
wowgr8
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:42 am
DChemTech wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 10:00 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
I am not sold on the compound difference, max had to pit very early. Thus the two white stints were compromised (when compared to Lewis).

I do trust RBR and Max. But it is not just about trusting the team you are rooting for. I will never forget Silverstone. And Baku can happen again. Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
Silverstone was poor, but it was a racing incident (sure, with more blame on the driver that continued, but it was not deliberate). I have more of an issue with the complete inadequacy of the FIA in administering track limits in Bahrain; if done properly, Max would have had much more time to wage a proper overtake, and that's a possible 7 points on the balance. And, all the obscure regulation changes that turn out in MB favor. There have been too much external influence this year.
Agreed. Merc made a lot of noise to FIA through AM on the floor changes early in the season just to get wing and pitstop changes through. If they had made same noise last year when floor changes were decided they would have been more credible. Now it was just too obvious it was to slow down RB because they had only few updates planned for 2021.
Well, the big question is still the value of these changes. The pit stop changes are more a joke with an introduced unreliability that is not fitting to this high class series. But if you look at pit stop times of good stops, RedBull is still ahead similarly to before the change. I think mainly the big gap in the first race and some arbitrary super stops has triggered an overreaction by Merc, from the later races before the change I see no difference to now. In US they had stops on par like in Imola. In Turkey the Bulls were 2 tenth quicker...similar to before the change.

The flexible rear wing might be more interesting. The question is if there is/was some measurable effect and if it is somehow different from the current squat discussion. Is there even a benefit from flexing the wing instead of squatting down the rear suspension? I doubt it, in fast corners neither the wing, nor the floor should go down and on straights it does not matter. So I think the effect is not relevant and the discussion is actually the same.
But this brings me to the point: If the suspension goes to a point where the aerodynamic effect is not linear anymore...like stalling, this starts to hit the same movable aero rule like the flexi wing.

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SiLo
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not. It's hard to make an argument for moveable aero in this regard. Non-linear suspension has been around for years, other teams are also using it and have been for a while, so why is it suddenly an issue?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Tech review looking at similar behaviour on other cars.
Felipe Baby!

basti313
basti313
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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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wowgr8 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary
No, this was answered now in many topics many times...
If you take engine nr. 5, the nr. 4 gets removed from your allowance and so on....
Bottas has one ICE from the US GP and has to run it to the end together with engines 1-3.

As the Bulls only lost the ICE in the crashes, they are not in a super bad situation, with all other components they are good.

For Perez: He was on par in Q. That is a super good sign, first time this season? Also at the start it was fine and although limited he stayed in the pit window till the second stop. So if this is kept up I see not again the 2 vs. 1 situation.

basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not. It's hard to make an argument for moveable aero in this regard. Non-linear suspension has been around for years, other teams are also using it and have been for a while, so why is it suddenly an issue?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Tech review looking at similar behaviour on other cars.
It is not a question of linearity, it is a question of stalling. Movement of the suspension with load is ok, but once teams start to stall aero on purpose with the drop it is a different topic. This is the big open question for me at the moment.

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etusch
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Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:09 pm
Location: Turkey

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not. It's hard to make an argument for moveable aero in this regard. Non-linear suspension has been around for years, other teams are also using it and have been for a while, so why is it suddenly an issue?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Tech review looking at similar behaviour on other cars.
If you can explain how the car back it's default level when car slowed down? For example, let's say something allows suspension system let car go down after 50 kg of df. It is not springs because they would make it linear and also springs must be work when car is down as normally. Car weight can drive it to down. ıt is ok. when car is in lowered state what lifts it back ? Brakes ? mgu-k ?
how it works at high or medium speed corners which you still need df ? For example let's say it starts to work on 200 km/h. How it affects car at turns you turn 210 km/h or 250 km/h ?

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Bandit1216
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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etusch wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:31 pm
SiLo wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:47 am
The issue is that that flexible wings are banned in the regs, and non-linear suspension travel is not. It's hard to make an argument for moveable aero in this regard. Non-linear suspension has been around for years, other teams are also using it and have been for a while, so why is it suddenly an issue?

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/arti ... yN4mS.html

Tech review looking at similar behaviour on other cars.
If you can explain how the car back it's default level when car slowed down? For example, let's say something allows suspension system let car go down after 50 kg of df. It is not springs because they would make it linear and also springs must be work when car is down as normally. Car weight can drive it to down. ıt is ok. when car is in lowered state what lifts it back ? Brakes ? mgu-k ?
how it works at high or medium speed corners which you still need df ? For example let's say it starts to work on 200 km/h. How it affects car at turns you turn 210 km/h or 250 km/h ?
One could easily change the arm and keep the linear spring rate, can't they? With lots of levers and pivot points this isn't hard to do really.
But just suppose it weren't hypothetical.

aral
aral
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Please discuss this item on the relevant thread....either the Mercedes thread or the aero thread. It has nothing to do with the Red Bull team

Nathanael F1
Nathanael F1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary

For Perez: He was on par in Q. That is a super good sign, first time this season? Also at the start it was fine and although limited he stayed in the pit window till the second stop. So if this is kept up I see not again the 2 vs. 1 situation.
If I remember correctly Perez qualified 1 position ahead of Verstappen at Imola.
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etusch
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Location: Turkey

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Bandit1216 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:40 pm

One could easily change the arm and keep the linear spring rate, can't they? With lots of levers and pivot points this isn't hard to do really.
I didn't know it is easy and it looks like redbull too

Gillian
Gillian
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Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 8:46 pm

Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary
No, this was answered now in many topics many times...
If you take engine nr. 5, the nr. 4 gets removed from your allowance and so on....
Bottas has one ICE from the US GP and has to run it to the end together with engines 1-3.


As the Bulls only lost the ICE in the crashes, they are not in a super bad situation, with all other components they are good.

For Perez: He was on par in Q. That is a super good sign, first time this season? Also at the start it was fine and although limited he stayed in the pit window till the second stop. So if this is kept up I see not again the 2 vs. 1 situation.
Where did you get this information from? The sporting regulations state only the last used PU in the same event will be added to the pool. So if you take 2 new engines in 2 separate events, both of them will remain in the engine pool. There is also nothing in the regulation specifying how big the engine pool may be. So in theory you could take 5 new engines in 5 events and keep them all.

Bottas has taken multiple PU in multiple events so he should have all of those in his pool. I think one unit wasn't usable anymore (as Mercedes stated).


Regulations quote:
During any single Event, if a driver introduces more than one of the same power unit
element which is subject to penalties, only the last element fitted may be used at
subsequent Events without further penalty

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Nathanael F1 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 2:38 pm
basti313 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am


This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary

For Perez: He was on par in Q. That is a super good sign, first time this season? Also at the start it was fine and although limited he stayed in the pit window till the second stop. So if this is kept up I see not again the 2 vs. 1 situation.
If I remember correctly Perez qualified 1 position ahead of Verstappen at Imola.
Yes, correct. I would have really liked to know what happened there. But that was the one weekend where Perez was ahead and redbulls starting from 2 and 3. Otherwise Max has been ahead of Checo (mostly by a wide margin) and up against 2 merc's. That Perez was there now is important. I fear they prioritized his set-up for qualy (or gave him a higher power mode) that has enabled it, but OK.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Gillian wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:07 pm

Where did you get this information from? The sporting regulations state only the last used PU in the same event will be added to the pool. So if you take 2 new engines in 2 separate events, both of them will remain in the engine pool.
I posted the same. It was about the engine pool in general, but it has been removed. Had nothing to do with Mercedes. :-(
The Power of Honda!

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Ryar
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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basti313 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 12:20 pm
wowgr8 wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 11:15 am
Sieper wrote:
Mon Oct 25, 2021 8:58 pm
Bottas has 3 new engines. If Merc gets an advantage somewhere they can stick Bottas up there too. It was and will be very close.
This. Bottas and his army of engines is the key and Mercedes know exactly what they're doing getting as many fresh engines in the pool as possible so they can run them into the ground trying to bother Max. Bottas will be a big problem not just at the tracks at which Mercedes will have an advantage but in Mexico and Brazil as well where Mercedes will have the strategy advantage with their two fast cars.

Perez had the drink system excuse on Sunday but he hasn't proven he can hang with Hamilton, Bottas and Max on pace all year, except at France where he had a strategy advantage. I worry for Max in this aspect, he doesn't have a wingman like Hamilton. These last 5 races are going to be incredibly tough and Mercedes are going to resort to desperate tactics when necessary
No, this was answered now in many topics many times...
If you take engine nr. 5, the nr. 4 gets removed from your allowance and so on....
Bottas has one ICE from the US GP and has to run it to the end together with engines 1-3.

As the Bulls only lost the ICE in the crashes, they are not in a super bad situation, with all other components they are good.

For Perez: He was on par in Q. That is a super good sign, first time this season? Also at the start it was fine and although limited he stayed in the pit window till the second stop. So if this is kept up I see not again the 2 vs. 1 situation.
I heard on Sky commentary that, Perez is now moving away from Max's setup to his own, since Turkey. It probably has something to do with uptick in his quali form.
Hakuna Matata!

Gillian
Gillian
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Wouter wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:30 pm
Gillian wrote:
Tue Oct 26, 2021 4:07 pm

Where did you get this information from? The sporting regulations state only the last used PU in the same event will be added to the pool. So if you take 2 new engines in 2 separate events, both of them will remain in the engine pool.
I posted the same. It was about the engine pool in general, but it has been removed. Had nothing to do with Mercedes. :-(
That's odd... :|