2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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godlameroso wrote:
Fri Oct 29, 2021 4:10 pm


How do you see each coming circuit at the moment?

Button was saying you need traction to do well in Mexico and Brazil and said RB was better than Mercedes in this area which seems to go against what you have said. I like your posts and know that you know your stuff, just maybe explain this difference

And Hamilton made a mistake in Bahrain which cost him 0.3 so gap in Bahrain would have been around 0.1


It's right there for you to see. Look where Verstappen gains and loses.

Verstappen carries more speed 3-7, and I feel Hamilton stuffed turn 1 a bit vs Verstappen, but it evened out because Verstappen kind of botched 11.

You can see Hamilton gains in turn 9 which is a very tricky traction exit. Again after the end of the back straight(12), Hamilton has better traction on the exit, Verstappen has better entries on 13 and 16 but Hamilton has better traction out of 16. Verstappen carries a bit more speed on the final 2 corners.

Also very telling was the exit of turn 13 turn 14 entry, there is a huge bump, that cost Hamilton. That Mercedes doesn't like bumps.
[/quote]

Just saw the video. You can clearly see that the Mercedes chassis in that particular trim was no match in the twisty parts of Austin. It made up its gains at the last half of the main straight. It had no realistic chance of winning that race.

Analysing the turns it is clear now why Max couldn't pass Lewis when behind on the straight, and why Lewis couldn't pass Max coming out of the turns. Also makes more sense now why the RB had good tyre life. It had less sliding in the corners.

Because Mercedes was forces to jack up thr ride height in Austin, I don't want to predict what will happen in Mexico city. Ride heights could explain why Merc was so slow in the Austin traction zones and twisties.
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BlueCheetah66
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:45 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Mon Nov 01, 2021 7:06 pm


Sure?
Videos like this are never useful when judging which care is better in a braking zone. It will always look as though the trailing car is gaining because its going to get closer. The only real way to compare braking is through telemetry
Can you show me this telemetry?
Image

I'd say data like this shows a better comparison of braking between cars

Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:00 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:45 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:39 pm


Videos like this are never useful when judging which care is better in a braking zone. It will always look as though the trailing car is gaining because its going to get closer. The only real way to compare braking is through telemetry
Can you show me this telemetry?
https://i.redd.it/n5hw2heh9dv71.png

I'd say data like this shows a better comparison of braking between cars
Great, thanks! Indeed the blue line always earlier on the brakes. Merc better at braking. Shame Max is not in the Merc. and Ham in the RB. Championship would be in the bag by now.

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etusch
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Christian Horner: "Mercedes have been pretty much unbeatable – until now"
......
The British Grand Prix at Silverstone in July – when Max and Lewis crashed on the first lap. I don’t think many people realise the severity of a crash like that at over 200mph. It was brutal. Max impacted at 51G – it actually broke the seat of his car. He was momentarily knocked out and we couldn’t reach him on the team radio. Your immediate focus is on the health of your driver. Anybody in F1 knows Copse is a high-speed corner, one of the most dangerous in the sport. In that moment I realised what we were up against.
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Last edited by etusch on Wed Nov 03, 2021 5:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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godlameroso
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:14 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:00 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:45 pm


Can you show me this telemetry?
https://i.redd.it/n5hw2heh9dv71.png

I'd say data like this shows a better comparison of braking between cars
Great, thanks! Indeed the blue line always earlier on the brakes. Merc better at braking. Shame Max is not in the Merc. and Ham in the RB. Championship would be in the bag by now.
The slope of the brake application is very telling. Also how little braking he needs vs Hamilton in sector 1. I think this is just more a function of how the car behaves relative to Mercedes. Verstappen has a more gradual braking vs Hamilton going ultimate late braking.

No doubt both cars are built around their respective driver's driving styles. Southpaw vs orthodox stance.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:14 pm
BlueCheetah66 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 6:00 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Tue Nov 02, 2021 5:45 pm


Can you show me this telemetry?
https://i.redd.it/n5hw2heh9dv71.png

I'd say data like this shows a better comparison of braking between cars
Great, thanks! Indeed the blue line always earlier on the brakes. Merc better at braking. Shame Max is not in the Merc. and Ham in the RB. Championship would be in the bag by now.
There are some interesting differences such as at approx. 1600m where Max is carrying more speed through the corner but he has less throttle on than Lewis, but Lewis has brake on at the same time as 50% throttle for a period. That suggests he might be trying to balance the car in a way that Max doesn't have to. Max can just drive a more traditional approach through that section.

Max and Lewis have different driving styles in some ways too, don't forget. Lewis has always made a lot of his time on the brakes - it's been a defining element of his driving from his first day in F1 (and before that, of course).

What we're seeing is two drivers extracting the most they can from their cars. We should be excited about that no matter who the driver is.
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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sergio: I show you the most special helmet of my career!
Tomorrow [Wednesday] I'll see you in Paseo de la Reforma at 10:00 AM to spend an unforgettable day,
one that we so deserve after all we've been through!

( Paseo de la Reforma (translated as "Promenade of the Reform") is a wide avenue that runs diagonally across the heart of Mexico City. Length 14.7 km :o )

Image ... Image

Edit:

The Power of Honda!

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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I just read this statement from a member on another forum (@Yupiteru) which sounds very plausible to me.

I foresee Bottas on P1 in the quali and in the race: Why does Bottas have engine number 6 and Hamilton doesn't need it??? Because Bottas will drive 110% in Mexico and Brazil in order to stay ahead of Verstappen and Hamilton is a maximum of 3 points behind on these 2 RedBull circuits instead of 7. Bottas has 2 extra brand new engines that he can drive completely to smithereens in these races.

This seems to me the only logical answer to the strange situation surrounding Bottas' Mercedes engines.

We have not yet taken into account that Hamilton has every chance behind Bottas and Verstappen to set the fastest lap and keep the loss of points at 2 per race. If Hamilton drives for Max in this situation, then we know which on-board radio Bottas gets and Hamilton immediately ends up in front of Max.
The Power of Honda!

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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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That is the play I expect as well.

And If Bottas can take out Max in an overtake attempt, even better.

This is imho already what happened in Turkey where Bottas also had a fresh engine. Perez also did not take out Hamilton in that race. If anything it was Hamilton forcing Perez off track.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

Just_a_fan
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:49 pm
That is the play I expect as well.

And If Bottas can take out Max in an overtake attempt, even better.

This is imho already what happened in Turkey where Bottas also had a fresh engine. Perez also did not take out Hamilton in that race. If anything it was Hamilton forcing Perez off track.
This is real life, not Hollywood. Bottas isn't taking anyone out on purpose. Drivers occasionally mess up, yes, but the last person who deliberately attempted to take someone out in a championship context has been retired for several years. :roll:
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Tizz
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Sieper wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:49 pm
That is the play I expect as well.

And If Bottas can take out Max in an overtake attempt, even better.

This is imho already what happened in Turkey where Bottas also had a fresh engine. Perez also did not take out Hamilton in that race. If anything it was Hamilton forcing Perez off track.
In Turkey absolutely. And in Sochi and Italy. The antidote is for Perez to take out Hamilton. I hope this will keep Mercedes honest. The weakness in this argumentation is the fact that other Merc customer engines had to be changed as well though not as often.

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Tizz
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:06 pm
Sieper wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:49 pm
That is the play I expect as well.

And If Bottas can take out Max in an overtake attempt, even better.

This is imho already what happened in Turkey where Bottas also had a fresh engine. Perez also did not take out Hamilton in that race. If anything it was Hamilton forcing Perez off track.
This is real life, not Hollywood. Bottas isn't taking anyone out on purpose. Drivers occasionally mess up, yes, but the last person who deliberately attempted to take someone out in a championship context has been retired for several years. :roll:
On the other hand, it hasn't been this close probably since they did and the stakes has never been higher than now. To exclude this kind of crashes is naive to say the least. Toto does think that as well.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Tizz wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:16 pm
On the other hand, it hasn't been this close probably since they did and the stakes has never been higher than now. To exclude this kind of crashes is naive to say the least. Toto does think that as well.
Are you forgetting 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, that all went down to the last race of the season?
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Sieper
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:06 pm
Sieper wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:49 pm
That is the play I expect as well.

And If Bottas can take out Max in an overtake attempt, even better.

This is imho already what happened in Turkey where Bottas also had a fresh engine. Perez also did not take out Hamilton in that race. If anything it was Hamilton forcing Perez off track.
This is real life, not Hollywood. Bottas isn't taking anyone out on purpose. Drivers occasionally mess up, yes, but the last person who deliberately attempted to take someone out in a championship context has been retired for several years. :roll:
To my eyes Silverstone was way worse then what Schumacher ever did (both on Hill (got away with it, as well as on villeneuve (did not get away with it). Bottas messed up in Hungary, but that did not seem on purpose to me (incredibly stupid yes, but those misjudgements happen easily when a horde of cars run towards 1 big corner).

Perez had every chance to take Hamilton out, in fact Hamilton forced him off track, but still he let Hamilton live. RBR is playing it fairly.
Controversy does not have a short memory.

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Tizz
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Re: 2021 Red Bull Racing F1 Team

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dans79 wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 2:36 pm
Tizz wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:16 pm
On the other hand, it hasn't been this close probably since they did and the stakes has never been higher than now. To exclude this kind of crashes is naive to say the least. Toto does think that as well.
Are you forgetting 2007, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, that all went down to the last race of the season?
Maybe so. But it is according to many people the first time the rivalry has raised to this level since Prost/Senna and Schumacher/Villeneuve. I think you are mistaken about 2014 and the title in 2016 was between Rosberg and Hammi with two very suspicious crashes between them. So the claim that the last person who deliberately crashed into an opponent has gone into retirement years ago is debatable.