2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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basti313
basti313
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Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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jumpingfish wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:21 pm
Yeah next season Ferrari should have a big advantage with their car to peremptory crush Mercedes, RB, McLaren and other teams so there is not even a thought to challenge the results of the race in the stewards room.
Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.

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Jambier
4
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:21 pm
Yeah next season Ferrari should have a big advantage with their car to peremptory crush Mercedes, RB, McLaren and other teams so there is not even a thought to challenge the results of the race in the stewards room.
Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
I don't see why.
Ferrari is good with the engine now, next year I'm sure they will have an engine that can challenge Mercedes.

Team seem now much better, serious, working greatly, I hope they will challenge the title next year and win many races, there is no reason not to do so, and it should be the target with those new rules

basti313
basti313
25
Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Jambier wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:57 am
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:21 pm
Yeah next season Ferrari should have a big advantage with their car to peremptory crush Mercedes, RB, McLaren and other teams so there is not even a thought to challenge the results of the race in the stewards room.
Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
I don't see why.
Ferrari is good with the engine now, next year I'm sure they will have an engine that can challenge Mercedes.

Team seem now much better, serious, working greatly, I hope they will challenge the title next year and win many races, there is no reason not to do so, and it should be the target with those new rules
No, they will not if they do not build a completely new engine.
The split turbo is about 10% more efficient. This is a simple conclusion for anyone knowing anything about turbo chargers. This is the reason why Merc immediately knew they were cheating once Ferrari got on par with engine power.
Furthermore the integration. With the turbine at the front they can cool it directly.

It is a simple rule in this engine formula: Without the split turbo you can not compete at the top.

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Jambier
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Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:02 am
Location: France

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:03 am
Jambier wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:57 am
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am

Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
I don't see why.
Ferrari is good with the engine now, next year I'm sure they will have an engine that can challenge Mercedes.

Team seem now much better, serious, working greatly, I hope they will challenge the title next year and win many races, there is no reason not to do so, and it should be the target with those new rules
It is a simple rule in this engine formula: Without the split turbo you can not compete at the top.
I'm not so sure, but anyway in 2022 all engines should have it as Renault and Ferrari are moving toward this solution.

This is a great timing to do so, because then they will be able to push some reliability updates even with engine freeze

basti313
basti313
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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

Jambier wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:40 am
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:03 am
Jambier wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:57 am


I don't see why.
Ferrari is good with the engine now, next year I'm sure they will have an engine that can challenge Mercedes.

Team seem now much better, serious, working greatly, I hope they will challenge the title next year and win many races, there is no reason not to do so, and it should be the target with those new rules
It is a simple rule in this engine formula: Without the split turbo you can not compete at the top.
I'm not so sure, but anyway in 2022 all engines should have it as Renault and Ferrari are moving toward this solution.

This is a great timing to do so, because then they will be able to push some reliability updates even with engine freeze
Yes, absolutely. I am also 99% convinced that Ferrari and Renault go the way with the split turbo as they are screwed for the next 5 years if they do not do it. And I am convinced that they do the development in a way Merc did with the 2014 car means develop engine and car together.
The issue is: They start again from scratch, the split turbo engine is in nearly every piece of the outside shape different. They keep of course the pistons and so on, but the difficulties on how to cool this engine and packing in the car will be new.

Of course the sweet spot in cooling package of engine and car will be different next year due to the new aero rules, and teams like McLaren, Aston or maybe even RedBull will be screwed with this, but still Merc and RedBull will have only slight changes while the turbo cooling by air will be 100% new for Ferrari.

In sum I can see too many changes....I can not believe that Ferrari and Renault will be competitive from the scratch with new engines. They will strongly profit from the move in 2 or 3 years.

Spoutnik
Spoutnik
1
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2015 6:02 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Really really impressed with Sainz. Nevertheless idk if "mathematically" he finished ahead of Leclerc on the Championship thanks to Leclerc DNF at Monaco ?

Idk why but I feel like he's a good "tuner" for a team who need to catch up like Ferrari. Maybe he's the next big thing !

LM10
LM10
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:21 pm
Yeah next season Ferrari should have a big advantage with their car to peremptory crush Mercedes, RB, McLaren and other teams so there is not even a thought to challenge the results of the race in the stewards room.
Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
Ferrari/Binotto are pretty clear of fighting for the title next year, not P3. Their PU, especially the ICE, will be completely new and that's been known for more than a year now. They've been working on the PU day in day out and will continue doing so.
There has never been serious talk of a split turbo and I highly doubt they will go for it. It would not make any sense as it's a design which Mercedes have innnovated to the limits for several years already. Ferrari's goal is not only to close the gap, but also possibly surpass everyone which they could not achieve with the split turbo.

As the ICE, TC, MGU-H, fuel and engine oil will be homologated with 1st of March 2022 and MGU-K, ES and CE with 1st of September 2022, they more or less will have one shot and they surely won't go for a design which others are so much more experienced with as they won't even have the possibility to improve it due to the homologation.

Ferrari will come up with innovations on the PU side. And let's leave it to the experts doing the actual job instead of using figures like 10% turbo efficiency they would never achieve as you assumed.

basti313
basti313
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Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:49 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

LM10 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:33 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am
jumpingfish wrote:
Sun Dec 12, 2021 8:21 pm
Yeah next season Ferrari should have a big advantage with their car to peremptory crush Mercedes, RB, McLaren and other teams so there is not even a thought to challenge the results of the race in the stewards room.
Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
Ferrari/Binotto are pretty clear of fighting for the title next year, not P3. Their PU, especially the ICE, will be completely new and that's been known for more than a year now. They've been working on the PU day in day out and will continue doing so.
There has never been serious talk of a split turbo and I highly doubt they will go for it. It would not make any sense as it's a design which Mercedes have innnovated to the limits for several years already. Ferrari's goal is not only to close the gap, but also possibly surpass everyone which they could not achieve with the split turbo.

As the ICE, TC, MGU-H, fuel and engine oil will be homologated with 1st of March 2022 and MGU-K, ES and CE with 1st of September 2022, they more or less will have one shot and they surely won't go for a design which others are so much more experienced with as they won't even have the possibility to improve it due to the homologation.

Ferrari will come up with innovations on the PU side. And let's leave it to the experts doing the actual job instead of using figures like 10% turbo efficiency they would never achieve as you assumed.
The 10% comes from a real expert not from myself. This number you can get from interviews with Prof. Fritz Indra, maybe the best source on turbocharging in reality.
He clearly said that a competitive engine without split turbo is impossible by simple rules of engineering.

By the way: Fritz Indra is the person who works as an advisor with AVL in every core project, especially racing engines. And AVL is the company helping Ferrari to build the 2022 engine.

Pany
Pany
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Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:26 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 11:03 am
Jambier wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:57 am
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am

Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
I don't see why.
Ferrari is good with the engine now, next year I'm sure they will have an engine that can challenge Mercedes.

Team seem now much better, serious, working greatly, I hope they will challenge the title next year and win many races, there is no reason not to do so, and it should be the target with those new rules
No, they will not if they do not build a completely new engine.
The split turbo is about 10% more efficient. This is a simple conclusion for anyone knowing anything about turbo chargers. This is the reason why Merc immediately knew they were cheating once Ferrari got on par with engine power.
Furthermore the integration. With the turbine at the front they can cool it directly.

It is a simple rule in this engine formula: Without the split turbo you can not compete at the top.

With actual cars yes. But I am not so sure with completely new cars next years. There are a lot more aspects related, aero, dynamics, weighth distribution etc. Etc

JPBD1990
JPBD1990
39
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:19 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Ferrari unquestionably understand each turbo solution better than anyone of us on this message board, and have been working on the 2022 solution since at least early 2020 (if not late 2019 when their little trick was caught out).

This year I have elected not to stress myself over what may or may not be. This year I elect to put my faith in the team, and trust that over the extensive lead up they’ve had to prepare for 2022, due to the many reasons we all know well, will mean they will come out on top.

Now if not, let’s have that discussion then. But for right now, I really do trust Binotto. Those that criticised him for the Sebastian situation - look at the result. Could not be happier with our drivers. The whole team spirit seems to have meaningfully changed. If they pull it off, I am first in line to give Binotto props - because he’ll more than deserve them… especially because he’s done it in the face of unprecedented pressure because of the engine debacle.

JPBD1990
JPBD1990
39
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 11:19 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Ps: my bets are in. I’m putting my money where my mouth is. Wish me luck!

tpe
tpe
-2
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:24 pm
Location: Greece

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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I feel happy for CS. I said at the beginning of the season that I believe he will will be on par to Leclerc. He was.
And then he ended up as "best of the rest". Not bad for someone one his first year in a team, provided we saw almost all other drivers struggling in their new teams.

Now, it's time to relax and wait for the tests.

ryaan2904
ryaan2904
35
Joined: Thu Oct 01, 2020 8:45 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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Leclerc disappointed a lot tho. Lots of talent, but his mind game is nowhere. Also from what little i could gather, he isn't really a good car developer. Or atleast he wasn't. End of 2021 I'm not so sure, hopefully he learns. Cuz however good CS's season has been, Carlos can never be champion with max, lewis or even russell in the field. So no point in taking the car direction there, else Ferrari will be left as a joke once again.
CFD Eyes of Sauron

JPower
JPower
35
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2021 4:06 am

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

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ryaan2904 wrote:
Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:02 am
Leclerc disappointed a lot tho. Lots of talent, but his mind game is nowhere. Also from what little i could gather, he isn't really a good car developer. Or atleast he wasn't. End of 2021 I'm not so sure, hopefully he learns. Cuz however good CS's season has been, Carlos can never be champion with max, lewis or even russell in the field. So no point in taking the car direction there, else Ferrari will be left as a joke once again.
Sure he can. No reason why not, especially if he has a superior car. Same for Charles.

LM10
LM10
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:07 pm

Re: 2021 Ferrari F1 Team

Post

basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 5:51 pm
LM10 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 4:33 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:31 am

Nice season, nice recovery after the fuel flow disaster. Especially Sainz played a big role, I never expected him to get this strong.

Next year will be a transition year. Either they switch to the split turbo or not will be the big question.
If they switch...they may be way behind with the resulting issues. If not I expect a solid year also somewhere on P3 as they will still lack 10% turbo efficiency behind. No way to overcome this with the aero unless they find a big loophole there.
Ferrari/Binotto are pretty clear of fighting for the title next year, not P3. Their PU, especially the ICE, will be completely new and that's been known for more than a year now. They've been working on the PU day in day out and will continue doing so.
There has never been serious talk of a split turbo and I highly doubt they will go for it. It would not make any sense as it's a design which Mercedes have innnovated to the limits for several years already. Ferrari's goal is not only to close the gap, but also possibly surpass everyone which they could not achieve with the split turbo.

As the ICE, TC, MGU-H, fuel and engine oil will be homologated with 1st of March 2022 and MGU-K, ES and CE with 1st of September 2022, they more or less will have one shot and they surely won't go for a design which others are so much more experienced with as they won't even have the possibility to improve it due to the homologation.

Ferrari will come up with innovations on the PU side. And let's leave it to the experts doing the actual job instead of using figures like 10% turbo efficiency they would never achieve as you assumed.
The 10% comes from a real expert not from myself. This number you can get from interviews with Prof. Fritz Indra, maybe the best source on turbocharging in reality.
He clearly said that a competitive engine without split turbo is impossible by simple rules of engineering.

By the way: Fritz Indra is the person who works as an advisor with AVL in every core project, especially racing engines. And AVL is the company helping Ferrari to build the 2022 engine.
Can you please give me a link to his interview? Would be interesting to read his opinion.

As for the suggestion that it’s impossible to build a competitive engine without a split turbo design, well, that’s a pretty strong one. Remember when Honda dominated on high altitudes with their edge on turbo side in the last couple of years when at the same time Mercedes still had the most powerful PU overall.

Another example is that Ferrari already after their upgrade on the hybrid part this season began to be quite competitive. I’ve not seen a major power difference anymore and that’s with the rest of the PU still being on 2020 hardware. There even is a quote from Andreas Seidl saying that the Ferraris now can boost from the beginning to the end of the straights and as an example of that Perez despite DRS was not able to come close to Sainz in the sprint race of Interlagos.