Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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My priors are that "all mid season TDs and rule changes are the result of political pressure and lesser so protests, both private and unofficial or public to the FIA".

I've believed this since forever and it's independent of the team leading the WDC (MB on average).

This is not a normative statement wrt the teams, only toward the FIA being a fundamentally understaffed or underqualified principally reactionary regulator.

I'd like to see some evidence of consistency or principles from members here, what are your priors.

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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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My controversial followup being, if it follows that you believe my above and therefore that political pressure on the FIA to act is the primary influence on whether an inseason TD or rule change will occur, it is fair game to look at who politically or in the championship will gain from a protest, if it is economically sensible for them to make a fuss, and if doing so is consistent with their previous publically made comments to "do the talking on the track"

Remember, we are the sheep here. If I wanted to lay PR cover for a political regulatory championship fight I might say certain things as team principal to the media that might be inconsistent with my conversations in private with the FIA.

Pirelli's PR statements and politics wrt. the teams and the FIA could be read as a textbook example of this phenomenon - it's mechanics are not restricted to teams :wink:
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dans79
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:37 am
What's your evidence that it took FIA 1 year for the wing TD? Just the memory of someone taking about rear wing flex a year ago, or was something written or disclosed by the FIA about when they started on the TD? I might have missed that disclosure.
https://racingnews365.com/how-the-new-w ... cedes-time
"In the summer of 2020 we already pointed out to the FIA the situation regarding the flexible rear wing. At the time we did not receive any feedback on that," Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff told RacingNews365.com and others.
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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:53 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:37 am
What's your evidence that it took FIA 1 year for the wing TD? Just the memory of someone taking about rear wing flex a year ago, or was something written or disclosed by the FIA about when they started on the TD? I might have missed that disclosure.
https://racingnews365.com/how-the-new-w ... cedes-time
"In the summer of 2020 we already pointed out to the FIA the situation regarding the flexible rear wing. At the time we did not receive any feedback on that," Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff told RacingNews365.com and others.
Yes, obviously I meant that important "someones" actually cared / reacted about the complaints made by other "someones"
Last edited by nzjrs on Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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dans79
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:54 pm
dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:53 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:37 am
What's your evidence that it took FIA 1 year for the wing TD? Just the memory of someone taking about rear wing flex a year ago, or was something written or disclosed by the FIA about when they started on the TD? I might have missed that disclosure.
https://racingnews365.com/how-the-new-w ... cedes-time
"In the summer of 2020 we already pointed out to the FIA the situation regarding the flexible rear wing. At the time we did not receive any feedback on that," Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff told RacingNews365.com and others.
Yes, obviously I meant that important "someones" actually cared about the complaints made by other "someones"
So we are into the moving goalpost region now?
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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:56 pm
nzjrs wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:54 pm
Yes, obviously I meant that important "someones" actually cared about the complaints made by other "someones"
So we are into the moving goalpost region now?
No, why do you think I said "someone"?

Edit: I can see this is hard for "some" people. "Someone" is placeholder for someone interchangeable bleating in the press. If it would have been evidence that it started investigating it then I would have said FIA as is consistent with my statement and my priors and knowing who the head of single seater is. All PR "someones" are interchangeable lobbying bodies, much in the same way most members agree all team principles are identically disengenuous "someones".

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dans79
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Well, here is your proof....

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-a ... 0/4981060/
By: Jonathan Noble Jul 17, 2020, 12:18 PM
Asked by Autosport if there was any move to change the deflection tests amid intrigue over the Red Bull wing, FIA head of single seater matters Nikolas Tombazis said: "We are not talking specifically about Red Bull here or any other competitor, but we are looking at rear wing flexibility.

"We do hope to make some enhancements to the regulations and to the deflection test sometime in the not so distant future.

"But we want to do it reasonably carefully and not to rush it and make a wrong call."

Tombazis was clear that teams had got clever in ensuring their wing designs were fully legal when tested in the pits but then were still able to flex out on track.

"The best deflection regulations for aero elasticity are the ones that most closely mimic the real load cases that a component can see on the track.

"So in other words, the force a wing sees is normally down and backwards, approximately, let's say, 40 degrees or so.

"Currently the loads we put in, there's a horizontal pull back and there's a vertical load, and some smaller loads like on the trailing edges and so on.

"We feel that is perhaps getting slightly outdated, and the teams may be using the fact that the load test and the load cases [on track] are a bit different to design their wings in a way that they are most resistant where the FIA loads are, but maybe less resistant where the rear aero loads up.

"We'd like to address that matter. It is not a five minute job, but it's on our job list."
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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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dans79 wrote:
Fri Jun 25, 2021 1:09 pm
Well, here is your proof....

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/fia-a ... 0/4981060/
By: Jonathan Noble Jul 17, 2020, 12:18 PM
Asked by Autosport if there was any move to change the deflection tests amid intrigue over the Red Bull wing, FIA head of single seater matters Nikolas Tombazis said: "We are not talking specifically about Red Bull here or any other competitor, but we are looking at rear wing flexibility.

"We do hope to make some enhancements to the regulations and to the deflection test sometime in the not so distant future.

"But we want to do it reasonably carefully and not to rush it and make a wrong call."

Tombazis was clear that teams had got clever in ensuring their wing designs were fully legal when tested in the pits but then were still able to flex out on track.

"The best deflection regulations for aero elasticity are the ones that most closely mimic the real load cases that a component can see on the track.

"So in other words, the force a wing sees is normally down and backwards, approximately, let's say, 40 degrees or so.

"Currently the loads we put in, there's a horizontal pull back and there's a vertical load, and some smaller loads like on the trailing edges and so on.

"We feel that is perhaps getting slightly outdated, and the teams may be using the fact that the load test and the load cases [on track] are a bit different to design their wings in a way that they are most resistant where the FIA loads are, but maybe less resistant where the rear aero loads up.

"We'd like to address that matter. It is not a five minute job, but it's on our job list."
Fair enough, thanks for the link.

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nzjrs
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Looks like "someone" was asking questions. Straight from the Wolf's mouth :wink:

https://www.racefans.net/2021/06/25/mer ... ast-month/

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RZS10
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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As i said, we just have to wait for more info since it will eventually trickle through.

So Mercedes admittedly made a (very standard) "can we do this, would this be legal" query a month or so ago suggesting a technical solution for their own equipment (most likely something that tried to mimic what they believed/guessed RBR could be using) which apparently would have been illegal, this might or might not have resulted in this TD (Wolff claims he isn't sure) - but if it was a result of the query this would imply that it was made with regards to the (suspected il)legality of the equipment itself and not just the workflow/procedures, right?

Wonder if the FIA actually had a look at any of the equipment etc ... but assuming that it was based on the query it would be four weeks for the TD and another five weeks until it comes into effect (9 weeks total, that's quick)

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dans79
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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We are getting of topic for the "FIA to clamp down on flexing rear wings" thread!
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turbof1
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Dear members,

I see a lot of talk about FW's, tyres and politics in this topic.

While we can agree that is a bit of a push and pull behind the scenes in F1, speculation on who issued what for what benefit remains speculation. It is fair to say we need to bring the topic back to the keywords in the title: rear wing, flex and regulations.

So let's continue the topic from that.
#AeroFrodo

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RZS10
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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Aston was still missing, can't compare to any previous footage unfortunately, but they were supposedly one of the teams which did not have to change their wings: [source: Race Highlights on YouTube]

Image

Alfa, by their own admittance, were running flexing wings but had non-flexing ones already, nothing to compare to but it fills up the collection Image:

Image

Now this is more interesting:

McLaren
Image

Compared to Spain (top)
Image

Looks like there's no difference, if there is any then it's within margin of error.

Alpine
Image
Clearly visible how the flexing is happening (arrow).

Compared to Spain (top)
Image

From that image i'd be inclined to say that there is a noticeable difference.

Source for Alfa, McLaren and Alpine: Best Onboards from Styria

Comparison (the blurry ones with the thick yellow lines are from sky footage from Baku), i did not add the McL frm Austria since there's not much of a difference.
Image

peaty
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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If it was not clear that 4 weeks (as Mr. Wolff wanted) was never enough time for having a new "rear wing"...


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SiLo
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Re: Rear wing flex and FIA regulatory test 2021

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peaty wrote:
Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:37 pm
If it was not clear that 4 weeks (as Mr. Wolff wanted) was never enough time for having a new "rear wing"...

But that's the team's problem, if they were running what is now considered an illegal wing and making it rigid suddenly doesn't work because the rest of your car was designed around it, tough luck.
Felipe Baby!