Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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wouldn't that apply to every Maxes move when he ran others out of road on exits? I'm not criticizing him as the only one doing that or starting another flame war, just that he is best known for doing exactly that even when they are right beside each other, and technically, IMO, Rosberg could have used the same thing to defend himself, contact was before Lewis left track, so it could be argued that he didn't push him off, very similar IMO to how people argue about Lewis-Max case - they both chose a wider than the quickest possible line available to them

edit: I feel I'm getting sort of off topic with this, and I think I've had this argument few times already before, so I'll stop, I think I've said all I wanted about this racing incident (Max-Lewis), what I really would like is a bit more legal footing for the defending/attacking outside car I guess, right now they are quite helpless, and as I've said - I feel like racing as a whole has been diminished because of it

Just_a_fan
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm
some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then

and I'll say one more time - IMO it was a racing incident, Lewis didn't do it deliberately, he came in there a little too hot, he could have avoided it, but decided to stand ground, Max might have given him a bit more room, but perhaps expected Lewis to slow down a little more, etc etc etc, and Rosbergs move wasn't just an incident, I simply wanted to show the extreme case of the inside driver not even trying to hit the apex, the outside car then automatically loses space on track period - and we as spectators are left with less sport that way, because some of the art of racing is lost when things like these are deemed perfectly legal
That was an interesting one. Hamilton was on the outside and it looks like the line he was taking was the classic cut back on the exit - a move he uses a lot. Rosberg just decided that he wasn't going to let him do that and so was going to effectively move the apex of the corner further along by not turning in until very much later than normal. It was a bit ham-fisted by Nico. He should have turned in at the same time as Hamilton and basically given Hamilton the choice of running wide or backing out.

It's not comparable to the Silverstone incident, really, as there both were trying to take a normal/nearly normal line through the corner.
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Jolle
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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There are a few differences.
Rosberg-Hamilton: Rosberg blocked Hamilton to take the corner by taking a line so wide that it is regarded as deliberate running someone off track.
“Running someone off track at corner exit”: this is a legitimate move, in most cases. It’s taking “ownership” of the corner (at the last phase) and the driver on the outside has the choice, go off track or yield. Rosberg for instance, more then once went off track and blamed Hamilton (USA, Canada, etc). Hamilton usually takes defeat of the corner and yields.
Leaving enough space: this is for braking zones, corner entry, etc, not always for corner exit (see above).

The Hamilton-Verstappen incident is not comparable with the Austria Ham-Ros clash, but more the Verstappen-Stroll coming together.

TripToTheBarriers
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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I have to say, what a lovely thread, with no one getting angry or abusive, point out facts.

I thought at the time the stewards had got it completely wrong, but knowing I am a biased Hamilton fan, I tried to find every reason possible for the Merc driver being at fault, and I couldn't really attribute anything to him, other than he initiated a high risk move that Max had to make a decision on. A decision I dont think he got correct at all, but in Max's defence, he had a split second to decide, and both were in the 'do not back down' mindset, and it was a racing incident.

The FIA rules, the previous examples (look at Stroll and Verstappen and what Horner said after that contact, Portugal last year was it?), and seeing Max squeeze Lewis, resulting in contact, is plain and easy to see. I really can't understand any arguments that are suggesting Lewis had ANY blame at all, there is no evidence to suggest this whatsoever that I can see.

jz11
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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sorry, I wasn't trying to say these two situations were similar, they were very dissimilar from the driver intent point of view, I only brought it up because some here seem to promote the idea that outside car has to give infinite respect to the placement of the inside car and cannot expect the inside car to actually try and make the quickest line through the corner, which further diminishes our chances of actually seeing more overtakes/defensive driving from the outside position, since it basically has zero rights to the corner, which I think is pretty absurd

cooken
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 12:14 pm
sorry, I wasn't trying to say these two situations were similar, they were very dissimilar from the driver intent point of view, I only brought it up because some here seem to promote the idea that outside car has to give infinite respect to the placement of the inside car and cannot expect the inside car to actually try and make the quickest line through the corner, which further diminishes our chances of actually seeing more overtakes/defensive driving from the outside position, since it basically has zero rights to the corner, which I think is pretty absurd
Again nobody said that, you're making a strawman.
The inside car if sufficiently alongside can dictate the line as long as room is left on the outside (excluding the nuanced corner exit scenarios). The only point which had been made is that there is no requirement to hit an apex. This statement does not preclude leaving space on the outside in any way shape or form. Kindly stop being ridiculous.

Santozini
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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[double post, please delete]
Last edited by Santozini on Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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El Scorchio
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Yes it has. Multiple times. More than once by yourself as well.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Santozini wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:25 pm
Not sure if this was already shared, but in case you haven't seen it.

Nice comparison of the situations...

Looks like Charles gave the same space as Max :?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGgpdb2WhRE
But Charles also didn't start by trying to block the inside before moving back across towards the outside, so Hamilton was able to chose his line more easily.

The two situations are different.
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Santozini
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:40 pm
Yes it has. Multiple times. More than once by yourself as well.
Yeah, i started by posting it here but thought it would be better placed on the race thread, i'll delete it from here

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El Scorchio
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Santozini wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:49 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:40 pm
Yes it has. Multiple times. More than once by yourself as well.
Yeah, i started by posting it here but thought it would be better placed on the race thread, i'll delete it from here
I didn't mean to come across as overly harsh- apologies if it sounded that way- but it was posted by someone else about four posts before yours in the race thread!

Santozini
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:52 pm
Santozini wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:49 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Wed Jul 28, 2021 2:40 pm
Yes it has. Multiple times. More than once by yourself as well.
Yeah, i started by posting it here but thought it would be better placed on the race thread, i'll delete it from here
I didn't mean to come across as overly harsh- apologies if it sounded that way- but it was posted by someone else about four posts before yours in the race thread!
No sweat 8)

timorous
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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jz11 wrote:
Tue Jul 27, 2021 11:27 pm
some people here defend the point that Lewis didn't need to steer to hit the apex and he was in the "right", have a look at this vid here:


this is your "logic" being applied in an extreme case, consensus then was that Rosberg didn't do anything wrong there, I don't even recall if he received a penalty for that or not, but we all know what was what then

and I'll say one more time - IMO it was a racing incident, Lewis didn't do it deliberately, he came in there a little too hot, he could have avoided it, but decided to stand ground, Max might have given him a bit more room, but perhaps expected Lewis to slow down a little more, etc etc etc, and Rosbergs move wasn't just an incident, I simply wanted to show the extreme case of the inside driver not even trying to hit the apex, the outside car then automatically loses space on track period - and we as spectators are left with less sport that way, because some of the art of racing is lost when things like these are deemed perfectly legal
Rosberg ran all the way to the white line and crowded Hamilton off track. Had Rosberg turned in and left space between himself and the outside white line then it is probably on the limit of allowable for the inside driver to dictate the line to that degree. Arguably Max did the Rosberg maneuver into Brooklands but Hamilton avoided contact because being tagged on the outside often results in a spin and that is best avoided if possible.

In terms of this incident I think the discrepancy really boils down to their apex position. In quali Hamilton was not touching the kerb and was going upto the white line by the red bumps on the inside. Max was going on the kerb by those red bumps. Since both drivers were trying to claim the corner it seems likely to me that Hamilton was aiming at touching the white line by the red bumps and Max was aiming to leave as little space at the apex as possible, considering his normal line meant going up on the kerb that would mean that car width or so of space would be from the red bumps, not the white line and as such the lines were always likely to cross each other.

EDIT: Also in relation to post contact I see the picture with the red line traced over the suspension and wheel to show the wheel moved. You can also observe Hamilton's steering wheel and it clearly opens up several times post contact to settle the car. I agree that it is clear the contact dragged Hamilton onto a wider line that what he would have been on without the contact.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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So Rosberg did all of that, deliberately and got 10seconds and 2 penalty points.. Lewis should have gotten less punishment by the logic.
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dxpetrov
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Re: Hamilton - Verstappen Crash Frame by Frame Analysis

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Not really comparable. People here somehow tend to disregard different nature of the corners. The Copse is a high-speed one, and crashes out of it could become fatal. Easily.