Escalation in race and team threads

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NathanOlder
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Mods, would it be very difficult to put a flag similar to the +- ones labelled something like troll bate and if more than a set number of 'hits' report it the poster is locked out of that thread ?

It would be easy for all to see who the culprit is (or considered to be) and not reply to future fishing expeditions?

I dont think downvotes work as there seem t be some who 'collect' downvotes
A problem with that would be if someone had multiple accounts, they could take out someone single handed for fun. As we all know (or seem pretty sure) Some users post very similar things with the same mannerisms that points very much to the same person with multiple accounts.
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NathanOlder
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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El Scorchio wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 4:38 pm
flynfrog wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:59 pm
certain posters have made an art out of living in the gray area.

And TBH, I would quite like to know why it was deemed ok for those two tyre based memes to stay active in the caption competition thread. They are in very poor taste, remarked upon by more than one person, and surely not in the vision for this forum?
Very good point, Also like to point out , most , if not all the bad taste posts in that thread are aimed at Lewis. Coincidence ? who knows.
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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aMessageToCharlie wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:08 pm

Censorship is not an option in a free democratic world. People have a right to their opinion and not everyone has the same defintion of bad taste. Some are very easily offended, some are not. If no rules are broken, why do you want to bend the rules to censor opinions or content you dont agree with?

Engaging in discussions and a tolerance and diversity of opinions is what makes a public forum. Not censorship.
Yeah, I think you'll find that censorship very much is an option in a free democratic world. Try posting images of child porn, or rape, or inhumane treatment of animals and see how far you get. Somethings aren't allowed even in free democratic countries. Rules determine the extent of what is and isn't allowed in a community. And any community gets to determine its own rules only within the rules laid down by society as a whole.

In this case it's not censoring opinions or content but rather wishing to limit anti-social behaviour. If people want to troll, antagonise and insult, then they can feel free to go and set up an environment in which to do that. F1Technical wasn't set up as such an environment. The majority didn't sign up to be trolled, antagonised or insulted.
Turbo says "Dumpster sounds so much more classy. It's the diamond of the cesspools." oh, and "The Dutch fans are drunk. Maybe"

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Big Tea
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:32 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Mods, would it be very difficult to put a flag similar to the +- ones labelled something like troll bate and if more than a set number of 'hits' report it the poster is locked out of that thread ?

It would be easy for all to see who the culprit is (or considered to be) and not reply to future fishing expeditions?

I dont think downvotes work as there seem t be some who 'collect' downvotes
A problem with that would be if someone had multiple accounts, they could take out someone single handed for fun. As we all know (or seem pretty sure) Some users post very similar things with the same mannerisms that points very much to the same person with multiple accounts.
But it would only be for that thread, and even then it may be a good thing as responding to a troll is a bad idea anyway, so prevents it

If the 'trigger' was set at say 5 hits, it would soon become obvious who was doing it. Maybe all gradings should carry a name, even + or - votes??
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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nzjrs
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:32 pm
As we all know (or seem pretty sure) Some users post very similar things with the same mannerisms that points very much to the same person with multiple accounts.
People seem to say this often. I'm pretty perceptive with speech styles, and I don't have any accounts in mind as sock puppets.

But if you do, PM the mods, I'm sure this warrants an instant ban. They probbably have IP addresses so it would be easy to spot.

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dave kumar
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:41 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:32 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Mods, would it be very difficult to put a flag similar to the +- ones labelled something like troll bate and if more than a set number of 'hits' report it the poster is locked out of that thread ?

It would be easy for all to see who the culprit is (or considered to be) and not reply to future fishing expeditions?

I dont think downvotes work as there seem t be some who 'collect' downvotes
A problem with that would be if someone had multiple accounts, they could take out someone single handed for fun. As we all know (or seem pretty sure) Some users post very similar things with the same mannerisms that points very much to the same person with multiple accounts.
But it would only be for that thread, and even then it may be a good thing as responding to a troll is a bad idea anyway, so prevents it

If the 'trigger' was set at say 5 hits, it would soon become obvious who was doing it. Maybe all gradings should carry a name, even + or - votes??
I do think some tweaks to the mechanics of the forum could help. This is my suggestion which doesn't target an individual as I think it is very hard to say such-and-such a post is trolling. I think it is easier to spot a pattern of posts that are, shall we say, nonconstructive, or degenerated in to a bun fight. In this case it may be sufficient to highlight the thread as being in an unhealthy state to make everyone step back and refrain from escalating the argument.
dave kumar wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 am
I'm proposing a ying-yang status as a way of flagging when a thread has entered an unhealthy state. The flag is a collective way of saying, 'we're bored of this, can we all agree to disagree and move on now'. The aim is to help highlight situations where a few people get sucked in to an argument that the rest of us have little interest in. My personal strategy is to stop checking that thread for a few days or so and hope it has moved on to some other topic. But could we use some form of group-moderation to help?

Rather than flag a post as ying-yang (as it's never one post that is responsible), members would be able to flag a thread as having entered a ying-yang state. If enough members flag a thread in a given time period, we cross a threshold or reach a quorum. Crossing the threshold may simply result in a change in the icon of the thread / background colour when viewing the thread, to warn potential readers and posters that we are entering ying-yang territory. Entering ying-yang state could also be used to bring the thread to the attention of the moderators who may wish to take further action.
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Big Tea
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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dave kumar wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:48 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:41 pm
NathanOlder wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:32 pm


A problem with that would be if someone had multiple accounts, they could take out someone single handed for fun. As we all know (or seem pretty sure) Some users post very similar things with the same mannerisms that points very much to the same person with multiple accounts.
But it would only be for that thread, and even then it may be a good thing as responding to a troll is a bad idea anyway, so prevents it

If the 'trigger' was set at say 5 hits, it would soon become obvious who was doing it. Maybe all gradings should carry a name, even + or - votes??
I do think some tweaks to the mechanics of the forum could help. This is my suggestion which doesn't target an individual as I think it is very hard to say such-and-such a post is trolling. I think it is easier to spot a pattern of posts that are, shall we say, nonconstructive, or degenerated in to a bun fight. In this case it may be sufficient to highlight the thread as being in an unhealthy state to make everyone step back and refrain from escalating the argument.
dave kumar wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 am
I'm proposing a ying-yang status as a way of flagging when a thread has entered an unhealthy state. The flag is a collective way of saying, 'we're bored of this, can we all agree to disagree and move on now'. The aim is to help highlight situations where a few people get sucked in to an argument that the rest of us have little interest in. My personal strategy is to stop checking that thread for a few days or so and hope it has moved on to some other topic. But could we use some form of group-moderation to help?

Rather than flag a post as ying-yang (as it's never one post that is responsible), members would be able to flag a thread as having entered a ying-yang state. If enough members flag a thread in a given time period, we cross a threshold or reach a quorum. Crossing the threshold may simply result in a change in the icon of the thread / background colour when viewing the thread, to warn potential readers and posters that we are entering ying-yang territory. Entering ying-yang state could also be used to bring the thread to the attention of the moderators who may wish to take further action.
I have to tread carefully here as I have a bad record of taking threads off topic, so I had better shut up and hope no one notices me
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

CMSMJ1
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Limited for time as need my bed.. but long term Poindexter here..

The tech focus is lost under the fanboy element of course and that is because the world moves on.

My suggestion.
Technical race threads. Contain the update pics and 'proper' tech discussions about the cars and development. Moderated for quality. Expect considered and reasonable posts.

General race threads. Contain the personalities and the non technical stuff. Crashes. Who is the best etc... Moderated when reported. Expect a shitstorm. Fanboys at large.

Split them up. Some posters will gravitate to one or the other. The feeling in them will be different.

I still love this place. Have spent hours educating myself.

KERS. F duct. Coanda. Hybrid. The TJ motor. The cfd designs and the iterative threads on car development... absorbing and amazing. That is this forum.

Petty bickering is not. So put it in a place to be vented. Keep the tech pure. The tech does not mind for which driver is at the wheel!

I cannot wait for launch week for these next 2022 cars..
Last edited by CMSMJ1 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Steven
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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dave kumar wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 am
Rather than flag a post as ying-yang (as it's never one post that is responsible), members would be able to flag a thread as having entered a ying-yang state. If enough members flag a thread in a given time period, we cross a threshold or reach a quorum. Crossing the threshold may simply result in a change in the icon of the thread / background colour when viewing the thread, to warn potential readers and posters that we are entering ying-yang territory. Entering ying-yang state could also be used to bring the thread to the attention of the moderators who may wish to take further action.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if, when we make the ying-yang rating of a thread visible, whether seeing that rating increase is sufficient to make members refrain from prolonging an argument in that thread. Most of us probably would refrain if we knew that a majority of members were actively unhappy about the direction the thread had gone in. That's kind of how society works. You're aware of the opinions of those around you and try and conform, at least a little bit.

This is essentially a way to make the views of many members who are reading a thread, visible to the few that are posting most of the content. It is a way of making F1Tech's collective mind more tangible, instead of me just sitting here shaking my head as i read another inflammatory post.
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Mods, would it be very difficult to put a flag similar to the +- ones labelled something like troll bate and if more than a set number of 'hits' report it the poster is locked out of that thread ?

It would be easy for all to see who the culprit is (or considered to be) and not reply to future fishing expeditions?

I dont think downvotes work as there seem t be some who 'collect' downvotes
Good to see a proposal to improve this!

But, why wouldn't downvotes work for trolling? I mean, that was part of the point, even though you could perhaps argue that trolling could be reported instead.

I sort of like the idea of showing a warning banner on a topic to warn people of a certain toxicity. We can't currently base this on ratings as the race threads don't have rating enabled. So perhaps, for the forums where we don't have ratings, such a topic rating might be an option. Then again, using the total post ratings (or the number of downvotes) on posts in the topic might as well be a source of data, no?

The trouble with trolling is that it's usually not against the strict letter of the rules, and only ends up building frustration with others until it becomes unbearable. The suggested quick response is difficult to do here, as trolling isn't about just a few posts. However, for some people, a simple comment against another one's favourite driver is already considered trolling.

In any case, I will always support improving tools that allow every member to take part in the moderation. I'm very open to discuss whatever suggestions comes up!
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:15 am
flynfrog wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:02 am
Just a reminder you guys all have an ignore feature. You can make the handful of problem people just disappear.
If one ignores an annoying poster it doesn't make them go away. Their posts are still visible if they are quoted by someone else, for example. They also still affect the thread, they affect other's attitudes and responses, they affect the tone and how pleasant a thread is - others may respond to the sniping comments and we still end up with ruined threads.

I would respond to your point by saying: "Just remember that you mods can ban people. You can make the handful of problem people just disappear". :wink:
I agree the ignore function isn't the solution. In fact, it may slow down our response, as the ignoring users won't report the problems anymore. The result here will only your own peace of mind, while the forum itself might deteriorate. You'd also have these posts visible for mods and not-logged-in visitors.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:39 am
Luckily, the Government isn't involved in F1Technical. Or is it? Steven? :o :lol:
The mods are the only government around here ;)
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:33 pm
Do you know if other mods read race threads? Perhaps the "wild west" behaviour is because mods aren't present/active.
Not all the race threads, but at least for the last three, I read every single post that happened after the race. I know at least one other mod does so as well. And A LOT of action has been undertaken, with me frequently deleting posts within a minute of their posting. So it would be much worse if the mods wouldn't be around ;)

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Big Tea
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Steven wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:34 am
dave kumar wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:20 am
Rather than flag a post as ying-yang (as it's never one post that is responsible), members would be able to flag a thread as having entered a ying-yang state. If enough members flag a thread in a given time period, we cross a threshold or reach a quorum. Crossing the threshold may simply result in a change in the icon of the thread / background colour when viewing the thread, to warn potential readers and posters that we are entering ying-yang territory. Entering ying-yang state could also be used to bring the thread to the attention of the moderators who may wish to take further action.

It would be an interesting experiment to see if, when we make the ying-yang rating of a thread visible, whether seeing that rating increase is sufficient to make members refrain from prolonging an argument in that thread. Most of us probably would refrain if we knew that a majority of members were actively unhappy about the direction the thread had gone in. That's kind of how society works. You're aware of the opinions of those around you and try and conform, at least a little bit.

This is essentially a way to make the views of many members who are reading a thread, visible to the few that are posting most of the content. It is a way of making F1Tech's collective mind more tangible, instead of me just sitting here shaking my head as i read another inflammatory post.
Big Tea wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 6:14 pm
Mods, would it be very difficult to put a flag similar to the +- ones labelled something like troll bate and if more than a set number of 'hits' report it the poster is locked out of that thread ?

It would be easy for all to see who the culprit is (or considered to be) and not reply to future fishing expeditions?

I dont think downvotes work as there seem t be some who 'collect' downvotes
Good to see a proposal to improve this!

But, why wouldn't downvotes work for trolling? I mean, that was part of the point, even though you could perhaps argue that trolling could be reported instead.
The trouble with trolling is that it's usually not against the strict letter of the rules, and only ends up building frustration with others until it becomes unbearable. The suggested quick response is difficult to do here, as trolling isn't about just a few posts. However, for some people, a simple comment against another one's favourite driver is already considered trolling.

In any case, I will always support improving tools that allows every member to take part in the moderation. I'm very open to discuss whatever suggestions comes up!
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:15 am
flynfrog wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 3:02 am
Just a reminder you guys all have an ignore feature. You can make the handful of problem people just disappear.
If one ignores an annoying poster it doesn't make them go away. Their posts are still visible if they are quoted by someone else, for example. They also still affect the thread, they affect other's attitudes and responses, they affect the tone and how pleasant a thread is - others may respond to the sniping comments and we still end up with ruined threads.

I would respond to your point by saying: "Just remember that you mods can ban people. You can make the handful of problem people just disappear". :wink:
I agree the ignore function isn't the solution. In fact, it may slow down our response, as the ignoring users won't report the problems anymore. The result here will only your own peace of mind, while the forum itself might deteriorate. You'd also have these posts visible for mods and not-logged-in visitors.
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 10:39 am
Luckily, the Government isn't involved in F1Technical. Or is it? Steven? :o :lol:
The mods are the only government around here ;)
Just_a_fan wrote:
Thu Sep 16, 2021 2:33 pm
Do you know if other mods read race threads? Perhaps the "wild west" behaviour is because mods aren't present/active.
Not all the race threads, but at least for the last three, I read every single post that happened after the race. I know at least one other mod does so as well. And A LOT of action has been undertaken, with me frequently deleting posts within a minute of their posting. So it would be much worse if the mods wouldn't be around ;)
Some posters seem to 'collect' downvotes and it would be just what some are seeking.
Also, it is personal perception what is trolling, so a downvote counts if I (or anyone else) do it, but if it takes a number of votes to produce any result it would remove individual preference and also prevent it being used as a 'weapon' against a poster maliciously.

I may feel something is bad, while it is quite acceptable to most others, or the reverse could be true.
One persons preference and action would have no impact, but if (say) 6 people thought it malicious, excluding the poster from that thread would break the chain, but if it was an innocent misunderstanding or mis-interpreted it would have no lasting effect on the poster or on that poster in other threads.

There would be the 'Ah, him again' effect and people would be in no doubt,- Troll: Do not feed
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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coaster
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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Usually the threads for fans of drivers attract the hostile posts, the purely technical threads tend to be immune, except for an inventor who was ridiculed for his lack of grasp of certain design issues.
If its painful, i leave.
If its challenging, i balance my thoughts.
If its positive, i get stuck for hours.
Driver fandom, painful.
Speculation, love it.
Design, love it.

Edit: the voting system has always been a mysterious oddity that i have no grasp of.
Its seems to reward the most active users.
Last edited by coaster on Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

notsofast
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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What I find disappointing is that forum members with a rating of over 100 participate in the childish behavior, including some of those who are posting in this very thread. It makes this kind of behavior seem acceptable to the 12-year-olds.

cooken
cooken
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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This is a technical forum right? Is it possible to establish minimum requirements for new users? For example:
Upon joining, the user has to read selected portions of the regs (maybe emphasis on defending and overtaking clauses) as well as a brief case study review and pass a short quiz before being allowed to post. It would of course be fairly easy and give infinite redos until passing. This would at least instill a basic familiarity of the rules and how they are and have been enforced.

A lot of the vitreol surrounds racing incidents, and it is painfully apparent that a large chunk of participants have a poor grasp of the rules and how/when they apply.

Maybe instead of a quiz there could be a stickied post or something, with links to the regs and example videos.

PS - I realize this is maybe impractical but hey maybe it triggers a better idea from someone else.

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Wouter
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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On another very busy F1 forum, I saw that during the race a new topic was immediately opened in which people could discuss the crash between Lewis and Max.
As a result, the race topic remained calm and there was talk about what was happening with the other 17 drivers at that moment. That has remained the case after that.

In the crash topic there were heated discussions (2500 messages) between the fans of the two drivers, but mostly in a good way.
The day before yesterday unfortunately it has taken a downhill route, talking in circles, and then the topic was closed.
In the end, by immediately opening that separate topic, the race topic remained fun.

It might be an idea to do the same here, should something bad happen again (which I'm sure will). See if that works here too.
The Power of Honda!

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nzjrs
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Re: Escalation in race and team threads

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coaster wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:15 am
except for an inventor who was ridiculed for his lack of grasp of certain design issues.
Perpetual motion?