2021 Saudi Arabian Grand Prix - Jeddah, Dec 03 - 05

[GrizzleBoy]

I'm still struggling to understand where people are justifying a proven brake test by using the fact that Lewis didn't do the idiotic thing in that instance and give Max DRS down the main straight?

Yes, Lewis tried to stay behind so that Max couldn't just DRS past after returning the place.

And? That's actual racing. Actual strategic driving. Well within the rules of the sport. Literally nothing wrong with it. Also at this point, Lewis hadn't been told VES was to give the place back, so all it looked like to him was VES trying to get the DRS (which frankly, is exactly what it was, he wasn't trying to comply to give the place back at all).

So what part of that justifies a proven brake check?

Is this the part where someone replies to me about how Max who was watching his mirrors the entire time he was coasting to the DRS detection line and knew exactly where Lewis was, didn't know what would happen if he suddenly applied 2.5g of braking out of nowhere just before they reached the line?

I suppose Max also didn't realise he was slowly drifting into the middle of the track where it narrows/bottlenecks, right at the time he was expecting Lewis to pass him and just as he brake checked him?

There's a point where Max being unaware of when, how and where to use his brake pedal or the consequences of its application basically every time Lewis is around, that giving the benefit of doubt doesn't make sense anymore.

[zeph]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.

https://ibb.co/Y3tjXs0

100% agree. First they had the SC for a few laps and they decided to red flag/restart, which incidentally worked out great for Verstappen who got a free tire change.

[RZS10]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.

The elements of the barrier weren't connected anymore (100% red, potentially the places marked blue) which is required for them to work as intended and they're impossible to reconnect by hand - the main issue is that it was very clear from that shot alone, so it should have been a red flag right away, not after several laps behind the SC.

[DChemTech]

Poor Verstappen! Apparently, he's such a bad driver that, despite checking his mirrors constantly, he had no idea Hamilton was behind him when he stamped on the brakes.

That's the argument, right? That he's so incompetent that he didn't realise that Hamilton was directly behind when he braked in the middle of the straight?

No, that is not at all what is being said. What is being said is that it is not completely unnaturally that in a moment of frustration, one may fail to take into consideration every consequence of their action, especially if they had a different expectation. If Max expected Hamilton to take the gap and pressed the brakes on the assumption Hamilton would move left, he may, in that frustration, not have considered things ended otherwise. A Kahnemann type one move, rather than type two. Stupid, but understandable.

I also love the equivalences. I'm sure the same people saying 'Brake testing isn't great, but not anticipating being brake tested is just as bad' were saying the same thing when Bottas wiped out both Red Bulls at Hungary? 'Sure, Bottas went in far too hot, but the Red Bulls could have anticipated that and taken different lines into the corner. In hindsight they all made errors of judgement and those errors are all exactly equivalent. In fact, secretly, really Hungary was Verstappen's fault and anyone who doesn't agree with me is biased.'

Again, not at all what is being said. In case of Bottas' wipeout, people were just sticking to the race in their normal behavior, and then suddenly an incident occured.

In this case, the normal behavior from Hamilton would be to maintain speed, breeze past, and that's that. As soon as Hamilton deviated from normal behavior by braking too, mid straight, without reason (whereas Max did have a reason, although his positioning was poor), the situation changed: both drivers were now behaving out of the ordinary, and should anticipate accordingly. The situation would have been different if, say, Max suddenly steered left while Lewis was overtaking.

Also, to those who say "well, it was a wrong thought of Max that he could let Lewis by and overtake in the next corner", I don't think that was a realistic option at all. He slowed down so much that he'd be too far down to overtake into the next few corners. He wanted the DRS so that he could at least remain within a sensible distance, instead of opening up a multi-second gap that could not be bridged straight away. And what's wrong with that?

[214270]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.

The elements of the barrier weren't connected anymore (100% red, potentially the places marked blue) which is required for them to work as intended and they're impossible to reconnect by hand - the main issue is that it was very clear from that shot alone, so it should have been a red flag right away, not after several laps behind the SC.

https://i.imgur.com/NZAaah7.png

It’s designed to yield and give at the attachment points if the load is high enough. There is nothing extraordinary about this crash warranting the red.

[Phil]

All i can say is, if Hamilton had done what Max did and attempted on numerous occasions yesterday (going in hot and risking collisions only he could benefit from multiple times and then topping it off with a calculated brake test that did result in contact and damage), i’d be very disappointed and ashamed.

[piast9]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.

The elements of the barrier weren't connected anymore (100% red, potentially the places marked blue) which is required for them to work as intended and they're impossible to reconnect by hand - the main issue is that it was very clear from that shot alone, so it should have been a red flag right away, not after several laps behind the SC.

https://i.imgur.com/NZAaah7.png

It’s designed to yield and give at the attachment points if the load is high enough. There is nothing extraordinary about this crash warranting the red.

Yes, it is. The barrier won't work as designed if another car crashes at the same place. It had to be repaired.

[ringo]

Max supporters are dellusional. It makes no sense argue with them. All Max had to do is step aside to let Ham pass. The dawdling was intendended to let ham get close for the brake test. A million blue flag passes both these drivers pass though, they know what should be done. There is no excuse for Max.
I said he had the better race car because it was setup for pole which it had in the bag.
It was the best in the first sector which meant it could never be overtaken on track if Max had P1.
And he got many opportunities to be in P1.
If he was a cleaner driver and was not unhinged yesterday, he could have won that race. Hamilton would not have been able to overtake him. They tyre strategy also helped Merc.

[Tom145145]

All i can say is, if Hamilton had done what Max did and attempted on numerous occasions yesterday (going in hot and risking collisions only he could benefit from multiple times and then topping it off with a calculated brake test that did result in contact and damage), i’d be very disappointed and ashamed.

Must feel very good to be a Max fan. If you think this is what racing should be or is about, i pity you.

100%. I love F1 and yesterday I can’t say that’s the sport I know. I am first a fan of the sport then drivers/teams, I am happy Hamilton won but Max’s actions need checking but it will never happen. I hope the last race will be lights to flag for one of them, it pains me to say this as I love a good battle, but the way they’re going racing now it doesn’t allow it.
Also if one of the rookies had applied the brakes on a flat out section of track for no reason with a car behind a race ban would be coming their way.

[Scorpia]

The elements of the barrier weren't connected anymore (100% red, potentially the places marked blue) which is required for them to work as intended and they're impossible to reconnect by hand - the main issue is that it was very clear from that shot alone, so it should have been a red flag right away, not after several laps behind the SC.

https://i.imgur.com/NZAaah7.png

It’s designed to yield and give at the attachment points if the load is high enough. There is nothing extraordinary about this crash warranting the red.

Yes, it is. The barrier won't work as designed if another car crashes at the same place. It had to be repaired.

I may be wrong but I think you could say they work as a bicycle/ski helmet. Once u had an impact the material won’t go back to its normal, therefore it should be replaced.

Looking forward for a thrilling finale now, just hope it will be a clean one without any incident involved.

[wogx]

A million blue flag passes both these drivers pass though, they know what should be done.

Yup, Hamilton going to the left, not driving directly behind Verstappen

[Bill_Kar]

A million blue flag passes both these drivers pass though, they know what should be done.

Yup, Hamilton going to the left, not driving directly behind Verstappen

And Verstappen not crawling towards the middle of the circuit, while braking.

[214270]

The elements of the barrier weren't connected anymore (100% red, potentially the places marked blue) which is required for them to work as intended and they're impossible to reconnect by hand - the main issue is that it was very clear from that shot alone, so it should have been a red flag right away, not after several laps behind the SC.

https://i.imgur.com/NZAaah7.png

It’s designed to yield and give at the attachment points if the load is high enough. There is nothing extraordinary about this crash warranting the red.

Yes, it is. The barrier won't work as designed if another car crashes at the same place. It had to be repaired.

No, not repaired but replaced; it’s a modular system. Grab a few spares, replace the damaged…continue racing.

From the website:
SAVING TIME
A 1/3-OF-A-MILE RAVE TRACK CAN BE RESET BY ONE OPERATOR IN 15 MINUTES, WHEREAS 2 HOURS ARE NECESARY WITH ANOTHER SYSTEM.
A 1/3-OF-A-MILE RACE TRACK CAN BE EQUIPED BY 4 OPERATORS IN TWO DAYS ; AS A COMPARISON THE OTHER SYSTEMS DEMAND SEVERAL WEEKS.

[timorous]

Brake testing you rival now leads to a virtual penalization with no real punishment?

FIA is ruining this sport. Brake testing someone is one of the DIRTIEST maneouvers any driver can do. But looks like Verstappen is free to do whatever he wants, legal or not.

It´s a shame what this sport is becoming

You are still assigning intent here.
There is a difference between brake-testing to get someone to ram into you, or braking because you were instructed to let someone by, and that person is not passing you. And yes, he braked at a strange time and place, but that still doesn't mean he did it with intent - he was probably expecting Hamilton to pass by using the gap on the left, or maybe he didn't really consider that Lewis was so close behind him (yes, which is dumb, but not intentional) out of frustration that Lewis was not passing despite the instructions. Then there was the whole aspect of poor communication, with one driver being instructed on the pass, and the other not. All these things weigh in.

Intent is actually quite easy.

If the intent was to ensure Lewis was ahead as they went over the DRS line then a simple way for Max to do that would be to pull the right and brake as Lewis got close to him before Lewis can fully react (Alonso vs Hamilton in Canada 2013 for example).

However since Max was staring at the left mirror and was drifting to the left side of the track as he hit the brakes it makes it far harder to argue the intent was solely to be behind at the DRS line.

[PlatinumZealot]

This is not a red-flaggable incident folks.



Oh and in other news, ALO had a nightmare race.

Yes it is! Don't you see that three of the fifty stickers got ripped right of the twenty foot thick foam barrier. Of course they have to replace them, and squarely on at that.