2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:29 pm
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:02 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:53 am


I have even mentioned an example of this in my post (Imola 2020) were cars unlapped themselves while marshalls were sweeping the track. I prefer racing over SC periods so I'm looking at the possibilities to have a short and safe SC period
Fair enough if that happened- I ceratinly don't recall it- but as i said, that part of the Yas circuit is incredibly confined. No run off. I don't think it's safe to be allowing unlapping while marshals are on the track at that part of the circuit at all and I am sure that would be the conclusion of those in charge. The rules mustn't be foresaken for entertainment. End of. I wouldn't necessarily question the length of a lot of safety car periods as once it's deployed there is a checklist of things that need to be done in specific safe order and it takes as long as it takes. In this case without abandoning that it would have lasted until the end of the race and that's how it should have played out.

What I would question is how many safety cars, particularly those in the last 2 years, have been strictly necessary and whether a VSC would have been fine in some of those situations. No doubt Masi has triggered safety cars (and maybe even a red flag or two) with it specifically in mind that it adds more drama to a race and bunches everyone up, rather than a VSC. The man has to go because his mindset is on manufacturing artificial drama (case in point Abu Dhabi) rather than administrating a race with proper sporting integrity.
Mad Masi has to go, yes. VSC while a crane is on track is tricky I think since cars run at higher speed at VSC than behind SC and only have to drive to a delta in a mini sector so they could drive fast at one point and slow on another in the same mini sector. Therfore in this case SC was rightfully chosen. By the way, the track is pretty wide there with car and debris on the outside and even some runoff on the inside. Slow driving unlapping cars therefore have a lot of room to keep on the inside, away from the marshalls.
I agree safety car was the only option there, (whether it has been at other points in the season is another debate) but I absolutely disagree it was or is in any way appropriate to have cars unlapping with marshals on the track. I think it's completely inappropriate to have that happen any time marshals are on track because then you're back into the world of subjective and inconsistent decision making and an unnecessary albeit very small risk to people's lives. There needs to be one single rule/procedure to drive consistency and that would be erring on the side of safety each time. Partly the reason why the procedure the race director should follow is pretty clearly stated in the regs.

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Wouter
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement?

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _48.12.pdf

From this FIA document 58.

Race Director’s Evidence

The Race Director stated that the purpose of Article 48.12 was to remove those lapped cars that
would “interfere” in the racing between the leaders and that in his view Article 48.13 was the one
that applied in this case.
The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car)
The Power of Honda!

Baulz
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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What has not come up in these discussions is that early on during the safety car period race control made the decision that lapped cars were not going to allowed to un-lap themselves. This decision was shown on the race broadcast so it was clear for all fans and teams to see. Having the decision reversed a short time afterwards was in no way fair and that is what ruined the race for me. Once a call is made, right or wrong, is has to be followed as teams plan their strategies on this.

Csmith1980
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
Even Sir Jackie Stewart says the end was not Hollywood and was pure motor racing.

The elements that contributed to align for Verstappen were:
1. Perez holding up Lewis so that Max's delta was always within a pit window.
2. Pitting under Giovinazzi VSC for fresh tires to stay within the pit window afterwards
3. Battle with Mick that left Latifi with possibly dirty tires
4. Latifi losing the rear and crashing at a part of the track with no runoff.
5. Mercedes and Lewis track position fears
6. Marshals clearing the track in the time that they did
7. Masi and stewards deeming it safe to let some cars by before calling in the safety car the same lap to allow one final lap of racing since the course was cleared. This being the controversial part since not ALL back markers unlapped thus safety car was not to be called in the following lap which would have ended the race under SC.
8. Max taking the inside corner of turn 5
9. Max protecting the inside of turns 6 and 9.

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement? If it was discussed before then should it come as a surprise that it would influence how the safety car period was handled? I'm sure the complaint is that only the cars between Lewis and Max were allowed past but would the situation been any different if all cars were let through between turns 5 and 6? Then would the complaint be that the safety car was called in that lap?

At the end of the day if Lewis lost there would still be complaints that the race didn't end under yellow. And if Max lost there would always be complaints Lewis, Bottas and Pirelli took Max out for a total of 18+16+26 pts. Without those Max and RedBull would have won both championships. And I don't buy the "Max had points from Spa he shouldn't have had". Max earned 12.5 compared to Lewis' 7.5. Had their been a proper race Max would have netted 2pts over Hamilton in 2nd. That result played in Hamilton's favor... Then of course the flex wing threats and pitstop equipment complaints to add to that. Mercedes made many efforts to slow RedBull down which led to changes in regulations, procedures etc. According to Peter Windsor Mercedes benefitted from the modified C3 compound too.

Honestly speaking I consider it all Karma.
So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?

Jolle
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Wouter wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:10 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement?

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files ... _48.12.pdf

From this FIA document 58.

Race Director’s Evidence

The Race Director stated that the purpose of Article 48.12 was to remove those lapped cars that
would “interfere” in the racing between the leaders and that in his view Article 48.13 was the one
that applied in this case.
The Race Director also stated that it had long been agreed by all the Teams that where possible
it was highly desirable for the race to end in a “green” condition (i.e. not under a Safety Car)
Horner calls: “remove the cars”
Masi: “oh yes, sorry forgot”

Toto calls: “que?”
Masi: “that’s racing Toto”


If the desire to go racing with an incident in the last laps, where it’s possible that there isn’t a way within normal procedures to finish the race under green, he could’ve made the call to red flag the session.

The moment the SC was called, normal proceedings would made the race finish under the SC because of the amount of laps remaining. As a team you make your decisions on the basis of the rules and regulations, the same as you design your car.

If the race would have finished under SC there wouldn’t be this kind of fuzz. That weekend Hamilton was clearly faster and had the race under control. If the race would have been red flagged and we had a two lap sprint, whatever the outcome we wouldn’t have this mess.

From the three possibilities (red flag, finish under SC and green without overtaking lapped cars) Masi already took the most controversial one. He made it worse by letting himself be publicly influenced by RedBull to remove only the cars between Hamilton and Verstappen.

And on top of that explain his decisions with “that’s racing”.

It’s spineless incompetence.

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El Scorchio
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Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2019 11:41 am

Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Csmith1980 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 2:30 pm
ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
Even Sir Jackie Stewart says the end was not Hollywood and was pure motor racing.

The elements that contributed to align for Verstappen were:
1. Perez holding up Lewis so that Max's delta was always within a pit window.
2. Pitting under Giovinazzi VSC for fresh tires to stay within the pit window afterwards
3. Battle with Mick that left Latifi with possibly dirty tires
4. Latifi losing the rear and crashing at a part of the track with no runoff.
5. Mercedes and Lewis track position fears
6. Marshals clearing the track in the time that they did
7. Masi and stewards deeming it safe to let some cars by before calling in the safety car the same lap to allow one final lap of racing since the course was cleared. This being the controversial part since not ALL back markers unlapped thus safety car was not to be called in the following lap which would have ended the race under SC.
8. Max taking the inside corner of turn 5
9. Max protecting the inside of turns 6 and 9.

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement? If it was discussed before then should it come as a surprise that it would influence how the safety car period was handled? I'm sure the complaint is that only the cars between Lewis and Max were allowed past but would the situation been any different if all cars were let through between turns 5 and 6? Then would the complaint be that the safety car was called in that lap?

At the end of the day if Lewis lost there would still be complaints that the race didn't end under yellow. And if Max lost there would always be complaints Lewis, Bottas and Pirelli took Max out for a total of 18+16+26 pts. Without those Max and RedBull would have won both championships. And I don't buy the "Max had points from Spa he shouldn't have had". Max earned 12.5 compared to Lewis' 7.5. Had their been a proper race Max would have netted 2pts over Hamilton in 2nd. That result played in Hamilton's favor... Then of course the flex wing threats and pitstop equipment complaints to add to that. Mercedes made many efforts to slow RedBull down which led to changes in regulations, procedures etc. According to Peter Windsor Mercedes benefitted from the modified C3 compound too.

Honestly speaking I consider it all Karma.
So it’s ok for an official to directly manipulate the results of a championship providing it makes up for some bad luck/mistakes earlier in the season because it’s karma?
I'm not sure it's even worth trying to address a post like that one!

Alexf1
Alexf1
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Lucky or unlucky is part of life but shouldn't decide big things like races (Ham Imola/Silverstone, Max Baku/Hungary). Race 22 should be handled like the previous 21 races. And to have a race end under green where possible within the rules goes without saying. 1 season, 1 same set of rules. Only when there is a safety issue like spontanious tyre explosions things should be changed within the season (although it's highly undesirable). Changing RW and pit stop rules mid season was a bit too much to my liking. Set the rules, then play the game start to finish.

Tvetovnato
Tvetovnato
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ispano6 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 1:32 pm
Even Sir Jackie Stewart says the end was not Hollywood and was pure motor racing.

The elements that contributed to align for Verstappen were:
1. Perez holding up Lewis so that Max's delta was always within a pit window.
2. Pitting under Giovinazzi VSC for fresh tires to stay within the pit window afterwards
3. Battle with Mick that left Latifi with possibly dirty tires
4. Latifi losing the rear and crashing at a part of the track with no runoff.
5. Mercedes and Lewis track position fears
6. Marshals clearing the track in the time that they did
7. Masi and stewards deeming it safe to let some cars by before calling in the safety car the same lap to allow one final lap of racing since the course was cleared. This being the controversial part since not ALL back markers unlapped thus safety car was not to be called in the following lap which would have ended the race under SC.
8. Max taking the inside corner of turn 5
9. Max protecting the inside of turns 6 and 9.

It would be interesting to see the agreement by the teams and officials to make an effort to end races with green flag conditions. Is that an article in the regulations or a gentleman's agreement? If it was discussed before then should it come as a surprise that it would influence how the safety car period was handled? I'm sure the complaint is that only the cars between Lewis and Max were allowed past but would the situation been any different if all cars were let through between turns 5 and 6? Then would the complaint be that the safety car was called in that lap?

At the end of the day if Lewis lost there would still be complaints that the race didn't end under yellow. And if Max lost there would always be complaints Lewis, Bottas and Pirelli took Max out for a total of 18+16+26 pts. Without those Max and RedBull would have won both championships. And I don't buy the "Max had points from Spa he shouldn't have had". Max earned 12.5 compared to Lewis' 7.5. Had their been a proper race Max would have netted 2pts over Hamilton in 2nd. That result played in Hamilton's favor... Then of course the flex wing threats and pitstop equipment complaints to add to that. Mercedes made many efforts to slow RedBull down which led to changes in regulations, procedures etc. According to Peter Windsor Mercedes benefitted from the modified C3 compound too.

Honestly speaking I consider it all Karma.
Of course Max had points in Spa he shouldn’t have had. Points are not awarded for a pole in F1, it’s awarded for a race, and we didn’t have a race did we. We have no idea how the race would actually play out, therefore, no points should be awarded.

No amount of circumstances or bad luck during the season for any driver is an excuse for not following the rules. Then it’s a manipulation of the result. It’s a real farce and a disgrace for F1, no matter how people try to justify it all.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:14 am
Unlapping cars while marshals are on the track has NEVER been a thing, and for good reaso. Why should it have happened at AD?
It was done many times, and there is no problem with it. It should just be done in a safe matter. So at same speed as when SC passes that point. Wouldn't it be great if a SC period doesn't take longer than needed?
and it was one of the things Massi has been criticized for, because it is not supposed to be done! like kimi on track with a loader still on track 2019 or 2020 (can't remember).
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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Jolle wrote:
Thu Jan 13, 2022 11:50 pm
The statement you linked was from December. The statement put out this January, from Mohammed Ben Sulayem, is totally different and basically says “I’m not pleased and the people involved won’t return”.
And that's as it should be, as Massi has been doing and allowing unacceptable stuff since day one.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:14 am
Unlapping cars while marshals are on the track has NEVER been a thing, and for good reaso. Why should it have happened at AD?
It was done many times, and there is no problem with it. It should just be done in a safe matter. So at same speed as when SC passes that point. Wouldn't it be great if a SC period doesn't take longer than needed?

Race cars don't unlap at the same speed as the saftey car actually. If they did they would never move away from the pack.

If a car that was unlapping has a failure it can careen off into the Marshalls and get someone killed. So I can't see why you are championing this idea. :?:

Why would it be great if the saftey car doesn't take long? Why do you want to rush a safety procedure is what I'm not understanding. Or do you mean you want the Marshalls to be able to clear the track much quicker? It is better to say this and look at ways it can be done.

But anyway this hasn't much to do adress the problem of transparency, integrity and trust in the system. It's a red herring argument.
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 3:42 pm
Lucky or unlucky is part of life but shouldn't decide big things like races (Ham Imola/Silverstone, Max Baku/Hungary). Race 22 should be handled like the previous 21 races. And to have a race end under green where possible within the rules goes without saying. 1 season, 1 same set of rules. Only when there is a safety issue like spontanious tyre explosions things should be changed within the season (although it's highly undesirable). Changing RW and pit stop rules mid season was a bit too much to my liking. Set the rules, then play the game start to finish.
Rear wing and pit stop rules were not changed at all. The directives were tightened because teams were circumventing the spirit of thos rules.

Within the rules the only way to end under green was to NOT let cars unlap and allow one lap for the safety car to come in as is done normally.

This was the message sent to all teams by Masi, before he bowed to Christian Horner and broke the rules.

But anyway guys, lets not do revisionist history here and draw the thread out over the same crap. Let's look to the future.
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Big Tea
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:43 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34 am
El Scorchio wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:14 am
Unlapping cars while marshals are on the track has NEVER been a thing, and for good reaso. Why should it have happened at AD?
It was done many times, and there is no problem with it. It should just be done in a safe matter. So at same speed as when SC passes that point. Wouldn't it be great if a SC period doesn't take longer than needed?

Race cars don't unlap at the same speed as the saftey car actually. If they did they would never move away from the pack.

If a car that was unlapping has a failure it can careen off into the Marshalls and get someone killed. So I can't see why you are championing this idea. :?:

Why would it be great if the saftey car doesn't take long? Why do you want to rush a safety procedure is what I'm not understanding. Or do you mean you want the Marshalls to be able to clear the track much quicker? It is better to say this and look at ways it can be done.

But anyway this hasn't much to do adress the problem of transparency, integrity and trust in the system. It's a red herring argument.
One way out of that would be for lapped cars to enter the pits and re-join on the following lap after the last car on that lap.
The lapped cars would assumedly be in the correct order, and it would take one lap, or less it it is the lap of the restart.
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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dans79
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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Big Tea wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 7:15 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 6:43 pm
Alexf1 wrote:
Fri Jan 14, 2022 11:34 am


It was done many times, and there is no problem with it. It should just be done in a safe matter. So at same speed as when SC passes that point. Wouldn't it be great if a SC period doesn't take longer than needed?

Race cars don't unlap at the same speed as the saftey car actually. If they did they would never move away from the pack.

If a car that was unlapping has a failure it can careen off into the Marshalls and get someone killed. So I can't see why you are championing this idea. :?:

Why would it be great if the saftey car doesn't take long? Why do you want to rush a safety procedure is what I'm not understanding. Or do you mean you want the Marshalls to be able to clear the track much quicker? It is better to say this and look at ways it can be done.

But anyway this hasn't much to do adress the problem of transparency, integrity and trust in the system. It's a red herring argument.
One way out of that would be for lapped cars to enter the pits and re-join on the following lap after the last car on that lap.
The lapped cars would assumedly be in the correct order, and it would take one lap, or less it it is the lap of the restart.
That could cause issues with teams underfueling to try and gain an edge on a close competitor.
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Jolle
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Re: 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix - Yas Marina, Dec 10 - 12

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ok, lets say we have all new rules that shorten the safety car by a lap... then next time the crash happens a lap later, what then? "oh well, forget this procedure, lets make a new one on the fly"