Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:

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JordanMugen
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:24 pm
Hell we have fans on this very forum who claim that even the 2021 cars all looked the same as each other!!
Broadly speaking they did. Even back when it was is not prescribed that way, cars from the same era always tend to look much the same as (virtually) everybody copies the latest new 'must have' go-faster idea usually within no more than two to three seasons (be it putting the engine in the back, using a monocoque, using the engine as a stressed member, using wings, using ground effects, using a carbon tub, using a raised nose etc). :)

Heck, often the copying happens within the span of just 1-2 race meetings! :shock: IIRC, the 1967 cars all sprouted wings very rapidly indeed.

Cars that all look much the same and have no wings: https://cdn-4.latimages.com/images/mgl/ ... 490_02.jpg
Cars that all look much the same and have wings: https://www.formula1.com/content/fom-we ... 826023.jpg

That sure happened fast! :shock:
Last edited by JordanMugen on Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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JordanMugen wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:09 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:24 pm
Hell we have fans on this very forum who claim that even the 2021 cars all looked the same as each other!!
Broadly speaking they did. Even back when it was is not prescribed that way, cars from the same era always tend to look much the same as (virtually) everybody copies the latest new 'must have' idea usually within no more than two to three seasons (be it putting the engine in the back, using a monocoque, using the engine as a stressed member, using wings, using ground effects, using a carbon tub, using a raised nose etc). :)

Heck, often the copying happens within the span of just 1-2 race meetings! :shock: IIRC, the 1967 cars all sprouted wings very rapidly indeed.
Exactly. There is a lot more monkey-see-monkey-do than actual innovation. Even if it's innovation in the motorsports space, it's usually borrowed from somewhere else.

Hell, in a lot of racing, you sometimes make something obvious to create a diversion from what you're really doing somewhere else.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:13 pm


Hell, in a lot of racing, you sometimes make something obvious to create a diversion from what you're really doing somewhere else.
Was it not this very team that had exhaust pipe stickers on the car to hide what they were doing in terms of blowing the diffuser? :lol:
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
Saishū kōnā

the EDGE
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:14 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.
And if it was for marketing purposes it would fall outside of the budget cap too

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Tizz
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:14 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.
Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.

Just_a_fan
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
We're all amateurs even when they do run. Correlation is a hard, hard thing to do. It's more than just imaging air and running a rudimentary CFD model. Even Boeing and Airbus struggle with it and they individually have budgets many times over the combined F1 grid.

NASCAR's interests in aero is in pack dynamics. They were smart in that the only way they could know was to test the hell out of the new cars, and it's something aero people who have made the switch from F1 to NASCAR (whether in house or as consultants) say it's really hard to do. Hell, teams were struggling with correlation last year and those packages were pretty refined within the rules box. It's going to be interesting to see what they cars actually do, and it may be a good or a bad shock to the teams.
Last edited by Hoffman900 on Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

the EDGE
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?
Many a teams car has not behaved as expected once on track, and they had previous data to go by. I certainly expect some nasty surprises in a few weeks for at least 1 team, if not more, and that could be any team quite frankly

Just_a_fan
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Tizz wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:23 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:14 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.
Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.
I have seen basic bodywork over any old bit of hardware. It doesn't have to be a current tub to have apparently current clothes draped over it. I've seen all sorts of cobbled together stuff over the years - even an old tub with plywood additions with bodywork on it once. Some is very convincing and some doesn't stand up to any close scrutiny. But if it's just to sit in a sponsor's office foyer, it won't really make any different either way. It's the shiny paintwork that will make unknowing folk think "it's Max's F1 car!".
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm
Hoffman900 wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:07 pm
Many of the F1 teams have a habit of building show cars. A dummy car for sponsor purposes makes sense and wouldn't have all the bells and whistles.

I'm looking forward to all the amateur aerodynamic analysis though :lol:
Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?
The teams have an idea because they're so involved in the design process, and simulation etc. They know what they have, but they have no idea how it will actually perform on track, certainly not against the others. We onlookers know substantially less, and have no data to make any inferences, at least until Bahrain.
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Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:29 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:24 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:18 pm


Technically new rules, we are all amateurs until the cars run on track and we see what actually works and what doesn't. You can't just feed data to your AI, garbage in, garbage out. You need some real world data to start the optimization process.
So you think that the teams have absolutely no idea how their car will perform on track until the first test? Or do you just mean we onlookers in internet-land?
The teams have an idea because they're so involved in the design process, and simulation etc. They know what they have, but they have no idea how it will actually perform on track, certainly not against the others. We onlookers know substantially less, and have no data to make any inferences, at least until Bahrain.
And we're not going to have any real data that matters, other than lap times.

Hoffman900
Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:28 pm
Tizz wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:23 pm
Just_a_fan wrote:
Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:14 pm


Exactly so. Dummy tubs are easy enough to make, as is dummy bodywork. None of it needs to do anything other than carry the weight of the paintwork and the sponsors' logos.
Are you sure ?I’ve never seen such a dummy. I’ve only seen them using old cars and renders. Making a dummy is more work than you think.
I have seen basic bodywork over any old bit of hardware. It doesn't have to be a current tub to have apparently current clothes draped over it. I've seen all sorts of cobbled together stuff over the years - even an old tub with plywood additions with bodywork on it once. Some is very convincing and some doesn't stand up to any close scrutiny. But if it's just to sit in a sponsor's office foyer, it won't really make any different either way. It's the shiny paintwork that will make unknowing folk think "it's Max's F1 car!".
This. Funny how much plywood can be found in some static sponsor cars ;)

They look the part until you start looking under the body work.