Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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JPower
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:48 am
Downvoted for speculating in a speculation thread, that's rich. :lol:

LMP1 cars back in 2016 had a weight of 875kg, dripping wet that was around 950kg. These new F1 cars dripping wet, are 885kg. These cars are so heavy that they drive more like LMP or GT cars than F1 cars, just from the sheer mass. When Vettel won his first championship the cars were 770kg with 150kg of fuel onboard. These new cars weigh more than that with no fuel in the car.

Then there's the tires, likely derived from the tires Pirelli provides for GT3 cars.
How do you know what they drive like?

Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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JPower wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 3:10 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Tue Jan 18, 2022 6:48 am
Downvoted for speculating in a speculation thread, that's rich. :lol:

LMP1 cars back in 2016 had a weight of 875kg, dripping wet that was around 950kg. These new F1 cars dripping wet, are 885kg. These cars are so heavy that they drive more like LMP or GT cars than F1 cars, just from the sheer mass. When Vettel won his first championship the cars were 770kg with 150kg of fuel onboard. These new cars weigh more than that with no fuel in the car.

Then there's the tires, likely derived from the tires Pirelli provides for GT3 cars.
How do you know what they drive like?
Exactly. A declarative statement is not speculation, he is stating it as fact. I mean, make stuff up, pass it off as fact, and then get mad when downvoted?

I suspect they'll drive more like LMP cars than they did, but they are still distinctly formula cars and will be unique in that regard. The best comparison we have is likely F2.

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Simple physics, a car that produces most of it's aero load from the floor is naturally going to be more sensitive to ride height changes. A heavier car means controlling that ride height becomes a bigger challenge. LMP and GT cars derive most of their aero from the floor, and thus become very pitch and ride height sensitive.

The new cars were designed with the intention of reducing benefit of rake, thus low rake slammed to the ground is the way to go, the same way GT and LMP cars run their aero. It's all about running as low to the ground as the regulations allow you to go. Combined with the mass that's bordering LMP1 territory, and having sampled the car, and how sensitive it is to over braking and over accelerating(things that affect the ride height almost as much as cornering itself, but that's another topic). LMP and GT cars are very pitch and ride height sensitive, however those cars have driver aids that F1 does not. LMP and GT cars would probably be nearly undrivable for silver rated drivers without TC and ABS to compensate for the driver's lack of pitch sensitivity control.

Because there are no driver aids in F1, and the way the cars build downforce, it's going to take some training to get used to the braking and not locking up wheels. This of course says nothing of how the cars will behave when they have to go wheel to wheel with another car.

In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this. The driver aids mask the reduced aero performance, and the larger mass also lowers the reliance on aero to an extent, however the cars are still noticeably affected.

Comparatively, the outgoing legacy cars were so aerodynamically stable that you could afford to slightly overdrive the car, that margin is smaller now. You're punished more for making tiny mistakes than you were, before slight mistakes would cost you a half a tenth on your delta. Now tiny mistakes become two tenths.

This is not to say the cars are terrible to drive, or are bad, they will be almost as fast as the outgoing cars, they just require a different driving style, one that better manipulates the pitch sensitivity of the cars.
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ME4ME
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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We'll see. But I agree with previous poster; lets not state opinion/expectation as fact. It's annoying and arrogant.

Hoffman900
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Godlameroso,

What LMP1 car did you “sample”?

Back to the car, definitely curious to see what they bring, but I’m holding my tongue for now.

JPower
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm
Simple physics, a car that produces most of it's aero load from the floor is naturally going to be more sensitive to ride height changes. A heavier car means controlling that ride height becomes a bigger challenge. LMP and GT cars derive most of their aero from the floor, and thus become very pitch and ride height sensitive.

The new cars were designed with the intention of reducing benefit of rake, thus low rake slammed to the ground is the way to go, the same way GT and LMP cars run their aero. It's all about running as low to the ground as the regulations allow you to go. Combined with the mass that's bordering LMP1 territory, and having sampled the car, and how sensitive it is to over braking and over accelerating(things that affect the ride height almost as much as cornering itself, but that's another topic). LMP and GT cars are very pitch and ride height sensitive, however those cars have driver aids that F1 does not. LMP and GT cars would probably be nearly undrivable for silver rated drivers without TC and ABS to compensate for the driver's lack of pitch sensitivity control.

Because there are no driver aids in F1, and the way the cars build downforce, it's going to take some training to get used to the braking and not locking up wheels. This of course says nothing of how the cars will behave when they have to go wheel to wheel with another car.

In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this. The driver aids mask the reduced aero performance, and the larger mass also lowers the reliance on aero to an extent, however the cars are still noticeably affected.

Comparatively, the outgoing legacy cars were so aerodynamically stable that you could afford to slightly overdrive the car, that margin is smaller now. You're punished more for making tiny mistakes than you were, before slight mistakes would cost you a half a tenth on your delta. Now tiny mistakes become two tenths.

This is not to say the cars are terrible to drive, or are bad, they will be almost as fast as the outgoing cars, they just require a different driving style, one that better manipulates the pitch sensitivity of the cars.
So you have you driven the car or not? I don't understand why you stated it as fact before even the drivers have put a wheel on the pavement or had a finished example in the sim.

marcel171281
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Speculation: They will drive like nothing else. Like F1 cars have always done and always will do.

Pretty sure that is a fact though, but lets call it a speculation for now

Dee
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm
Simple physics, a car that produces most of it's aero load from the floor is naturally going to be more sensitive to ride height changes. A heavier car means controlling that ride height becomes a bigger challenge. LMP and GT cars derive most of their aero from the floor, and thus become very pitch and ride height sensitive.

The new cars were designed with the intention of reducing benefit of rake, thus low rake slammed to the ground is the way to go, the same way GT and LMP cars run their aero. It's all about running as low to the ground as the regulations allow you to go. Combined with the mass that's bordering LMP1 territory, and having sampled the car, and how sensitive it is to over braking and over accelerating(things that affect the ride height almost as much as cornering itself, but that's another topic). LMP and GT cars are very pitch and ride height sensitive, however those cars have driver aids that F1 does not. LMP and GT cars would probably be nearly undrivable for silver rated drivers without TC and ABS to compensate for the driver's lack of pitch sensitivity control.

Because there are no driver aids in F1, and the way the cars build downforce, it's going to take some training to get used to the braking and not locking up wheels. This of course says nothing of how the cars will behave when they have to go wheel to wheel with another car.

In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this. The driver aids mask the reduced aero performance, and the larger mass also lowers the reliance on aero to an extent, however the cars are still noticeably affected.

Comparatively, the outgoing legacy cars were so aerodynamically stable that you could afford to slightly overdrive the car, that margin is smaller now. You're punished more for making tiny mistakes than you were, before slight mistakes would cost you a half a tenth on your delta. Now tiny mistakes become two tenths.

This is not to say the cars are terrible to drive, or are bad, they will be almost as fast as the outgoing cars, they just require a different driving style, one that better manipulates the pitch sensitivity of the cars.
"In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this"

I may be stupid asking this but is DRS effective through the corners instead of the straight?

If so, Would it be cool if DRS detection can be used only twice through the lap, but used anywhere and the drivers then decide where to use it?

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Zynerji
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Dee wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:10 pm
godlameroso wrote:
Wed Jan 19, 2022 7:04 pm
Simple physics, a car that produces most of it's aero load from the floor is naturally going to be more sensitive to ride height changes. A heavier car means controlling that ride height becomes a bigger challenge. LMP and GT cars derive most of their aero from the floor, and thus become very pitch and ride height sensitive.

The new cars were designed with the intention of reducing benefit of rake, thus low rake slammed to the ground is the way to go, the same way GT and LMP cars run their aero. It's all about running as low to the ground as the regulations allow you to go. Combined with the mass that's bordering LMP1 territory, and having sampled the car, and how sensitive it is to over braking and over accelerating(things that affect the ride height almost as much as cornering itself, but that's another topic). LMP and GT cars are very pitch and ride height sensitive, however those cars have driver aids that F1 does not. LMP and GT cars would probably be nearly undrivable for silver rated drivers without TC and ABS to compensate for the driver's lack of pitch sensitivity control.

Because there are no driver aids in F1, and the way the cars build downforce, it's going to take some training to get used to the braking and not locking up wheels. This of course says nothing of how the cars will behave when they have to go wheel to wheel with another car.

In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this. The driver aids mask the reduced aero performance, and the larger mass also lowers the reliance on aero to an extent, however the cars are still noticeably affected.

Comparatively, the outgoing legacy cars were so aerodynamically stable that you could afford to slightly overdrive the car, that margin is smaller now. You're punished more for making tiny mistakes than you were, before slight mistakes would cost you a half a tenth on your delta. Now tiny mistakes become two tenths.

This is not to say the cars are terrible to drive, or are bad, they will be almost as fast as the outgoing cars, they just require a different driving style, one that better manipulates the pitch sensitivity of the cars.
"In my experience, GT and LMP cars still suffer from reduced downforce when following another car, trains often form in real races because of this"

I may be stupid asking this but is DRS effective through the corners instead of the straight?

If so, Would it be cool if DRS detection can be used only twice through the lap, but used anywhere and the drivers then decide where to use it?
Qualifying used to be this way until Ferrari cried because RBR could use it most of the lap, and they could not.

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lio007
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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State of affairs:

https://f1-insider.com/red-bull-markos- ... 022-40887/
According to ex-Red Bull driver Alex Albon, who will drive for Williams in 2022, Red Bull is said to have put too much energy into last year's car and is therefore lagging behind with the development of the new car.

Marko: "Albon's comments were misinterpreted. All I can say is that we want to defend Max Verstappen's title and are very well positioned to do so. We had two different development programs running in 2021. Both have worked. There's no reason to assume that Mercedes and we won't be the favorites this year as well. Unless someone has found the philosopher's stone in the new regulations."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://racingnews365.com/horner-offers ... ting-plans
Horner offers update on Red Bull RB18 and testing plans

Speaking in an exclusive interview with RacingNews365.com, Christian Horner provided an update on where the new RB18 is in the manufacturing process.

Red Bull team boss Christian Horner has explained how the team are faring as they work flat out on the development and manufacturing of the all-new RB18.

The new car, which will be the team's first offering to suit F1's revolutionary new regulations, is yet to have a formal launch date confirmed, but the team did offer a tantalising teaser image of the rear of their design last week.

Speaking in an exclusive interview with RacingNews365.com, a relaxed but focused Horner said that the new car is on target to begin the physical build next week.

"This is that time of year where everything's a bit tight; it's lots of long hours and takeaways!" he said.

"There's a lot of hard work going into RB18 [and] it's taking shape. It's hitting the majority of its targets so far.

"The team are working incredibly hard, and it's really coming together. It goes into car build next week, so that's exciting!"

Red Bull planning their usual shakedown
As has become standard for Red Bull in recent years, Horner confirmed that they intend to bring the new car along for a shakedown before testing.

This involves the team using one of their allocated two filming days, permitting 100 kilometres of track running time on specially-supplied Pirelli tyres.

The shakedown allows the teams to identify and fix any early glitches that could have serious consequences for their preparations once testing begins properly.

"In terms of testing, we'll do the usual shakedown, prior to heading down to Barcelona and Bahrain," Horner explained.

"With a new car, it's not a lot at three days a driver – it's pretty intense. But it'll certainly make the first part of the season, for the fans and the followers, more interesting."

Horner believes that the early testing results could be somewhat surprising, with some unusual names appearing, given that the regulations are so different.

"Particularly with such a big regulation shake-up, there will be winners and losers from that," he added.

"So you might get some curveball results that you've not expected, depending on what solutions people have come up with."

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godlameroso
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Didn't Red Bull use 2021 to good effect in preparing for 2022? Both the spoon rear wing and the 2022 rear wing share a lot of similarities in how it works. It also kind of proves Prandtl's bell shaped lift profile works to maintain lift while reducing drag.
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ispano6
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Re: RBR RB18 Speculation Thread

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mclaren_mircea wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:54 pm
Despite the fact that surely Newey its a specialst on this ground effect regs, he surely cant compensate the fact that Red Bull spent to much on the 2021 car. It was visible on the amount of aero upgrades on the car until late in the season. I just cant understand how was posible for Mercedes to keep up with them in performance despite the big difference in aero update-packages. The 2022 car surely is affected by so many hours used in the wind tunnel and CFD. After the Vettel era they insisted so much for this Verstappen title. I expect them to by off the pace.. not just after Ferrari and Mercedes but even after Alpine, Mclaren and Aston Martin. They will recover during the season but will be too late for the 2022 championship. If they have the fastest car in 2022 with the huge amount of resources allocated to the 2021, than hats off to Adrian Newey. What can Binotto, Mike Elliot and James Kay say if they are beaten by Newey who developed the 2021 car until september-october??? It is againts all the odds and common sense.
Both Red Bull and Mercedes were developing well into the latter part of the season, however they both had concurrent development of the 2022 car. The 2022 car's development actually started quite a bit over a year ago and had to be paused due to the delay of the introduction of the new spec cars. They didn't start developing the 2022 car in 2021, if that's what you're thinking. Mercedes were bringing developments late into the season as well, trialing outboard front wings and the like and they also have the fewest wind-tunnel time compared to all teams. Red Bull and AlphaTauri also share the same 60% wind tunnel so it's possible different philosophies were considered and Mercedes and AstonMartin probably also has a similar approach. It will be interesting to see what the interpretations of the rules yields and what kind of sandbagging will be happening in pre-season testing. Also how teams are using open-sourced parts from others as well as the other parts categories like the standard supply component and transferable components. It would be nice if the AT03 benefits from the RB18 and has similar performance.

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lio007
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Re: RBR RB18 Speculation Thread

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ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:59 am
mclaren_mircea wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:54 pm
Despite the fact that surely Newey its a specialst on this ground effect regs, he surely cant compensate the fact that Red Bull spent to much on the 2021 car. It was visible on the amount of aero upgrades on the car until late in the season. I just cant understand how was posible for Mercedes to keep up with them in performance despite the big difference in aero update-packages. The 2022 car surely is affected by so many hours used in the wind tunnel and CFD. After the Vettel era they insisted so much for this Verstappen title. I expect them to by off the pace.. not just after Ferrari and Mercedes but even after Alpine, Mclaren and Aston Martin. They will recover during the season but will be too late for the 2022 championship. If they have the fastest car in 2022 with the huge amount of resources allocated to the 2021, than hats off to Adrian Newey. What can Binotto, Mike Elliot and James Kay say if they are beaten by Newey who developed the 2021 car until september-october??? It is againts all the odds and common sense.
Both Red Bull and Mercedes were developing well into the latter part of the season, however they both had concurrent development of the 2022 car. The 2022 car's development actually started quite a bit over a year ago and had to be paused due to the delay of the introduction of the new spec cars. They didn't start developing the 2022 car in 2021, if that's what you're thinking. Mercedes were bringing developments late into the season as well, trialing outboard front wings and the like and they also have the fewest wind-tunnel time compared to all teams. Red Bull and AlphaTauri also share the same 60% wind tunnel so it's possible different philosophies were considered and Mercedes and AstonMartin probably also has a similar approach. It will be interesting to see what the interpretations of the rules yields and what kind of sandbagging will be happening in pre-season testing. Also how teams are using open-sourced parts from others as well as the other parts categories like the standard supply component and transferable components. It would be nice if the AT03 benefits from the RB18 and has similar performance.
RB had the least wind tunnel time from July to December, because on 30th of June they were P1 in the constructers championship.

Mat-tes
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Re: RBR RB18 Speculation Thread

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lio007 wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 6:25 am
ispano6 wrote:
Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:59 am
mclaren_mircea wrote:
Thu Jan 06, 2022 2:54 pm
Despite the fact that surely Newey its a specialst on this ground effect regs, he surely cant compensate the fact that Red Bull spent to much on the 2021 car. It was visible on the amount of aero upgrades on the car until late in the season. I just cant understand how was posible for Mercedes to keep up with them in performance despite the big difference in aero update-packages. The 2022 car surely is affected by so many hours used in the wind tunnel and CFD. After the Vettel era they insisted so much for this Verstappen title. I expect them to by off the pace.. not just after Ferrari and Mercedes but even after Alpine, Mclaren and Aston Martin. They will recover during the season but will be too late for the 2022 championship. If they have the fastest car in 2022 with the huge amount of resources allocated to the 2021, than hats off to Adrian Newey. What can Binotto, Mike Elliot and James Kay say if they are beaten by Newey who developed the 2021 car until september-october??? It is againts all the odds and common sense.
Both Red Bull and Mercedes were developing well into the latter part of the season, however they both had concurrent development of the 2022 car. The 2022 car's development actually started quite a bit over a year ago and had to be paused due to the delay of the introduction of the new spec cars. They didn't start developing the 2022 car in 2021, if that's what you're thinking. Mercedes were bringing developments late into the season as well, trialing outboard front wings and the like and they also have the fewest wind-tunnel time compared to all teams. Red Bull and AlphaTauri also share the same 60% wind tunnel so it's possible different philosophies were considered and Mercedes and AstonMartin probably also has a similar approach. It will be interesting to see what the interpretations of the rules yields and what kind of sandbagging will be happening in pre-season testing. Also how teams are using open-sourced parts from others as well as the other parts categories like the standard supply component and transferable components. It would be nice if the AT03 benefits from the RB18 and has similar performance.
RB had the least wind tunnel time from July to December, because on 30th of June they were P1 in the constructers championship.
We still don't know by how much Red Bull is Newey dependent nowadays. They clearly suffered from his reduced involvement in preparing 2017 so here's hopping they corrected the development team to be less dependent on him. The issue of the 2021 push reducing 2022 preparation is a real problem for the top two teams, it seems almost impossible it won't affect them at least for the winter test or even the beginning of the season.

One thing I'm curious about is the slim version of the diffusor they had this season as they were the only team to have a really narrow transition between the mandatory floor and the edge of the diffusor. I was wondering if that additional space/volume they managed to get could help out a lot now that the 2022 cars are very underbody dependent.

Pirro
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Re: Red Bull RB18 Speculation Thread

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Not very technical, but KTM unveiled the RC16 2022 today.
Maybe we have a hint on a slightly different livery for RB this year! More white and a sparkly blue?