2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:01 pm
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:47 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:40 pm


The "probably too extensive" means they don't know what it is.
That wasn't in the article, it was just his opinion. It's a shame we might not find out in reality though.

The budget cap is important for F1 for sure, but I'm not feeling so great about it given the current economic circumstances.
What I read was "Since 99% of the 2022 car was NEW, it cost 30 Million more than the 2023 car will." The 30 Million will vary from teams to team depending on how much they cary over.

The other thing about the CAP we don't know is "how much of the 2022 car was built using 2021 budget vs 2022 budget". How much did McLaren spend in 2021 on the 2021 car trying to stay ahead of Ferrari that they could have put into the 2022 car? Let's face it the 2021 baby was one of those rare occasions that we through the baby out WITH the bath water!
I have wondered how it works. Is the budget cap for a calendar year or for a specific car? If it would be for a specific period then this years car was possibly not subjected to budget constraints? But now we have a calendar period in which they have to develop the MCL36 and create the MCL37. In a way it is more reassuring if this years car was built without a cap, because if it was built IN the cap, then you'd argue that the issue may be the design and engineering talent at our disposal.

You're right about 2021, silly decision not to focus on the MCL36 and the reason for us being a bit behind this year.
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djos
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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The cap is for the calendar year. So If you blow your 22 budget improving your 22 car, you’ve got no money to design the 23 car.
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diffuser
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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djos wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 12:35 am
The cap is for the calendar year. So If you blow your 22 budget improving your 22 car, you’ve got no money to design the 23 car.
It's either a calendar year or financial year. So it might go from Feb 1 to Jan 31st.

Like I said, this year is different to last year. You're not switching to another size rim so you don't have to redesign your brakes. You're suspension might need tweaks but it not a complete redesign cause of a ban on a technology. Same with the crash structures and all that. There is significant savings.

101FlyingDutchman
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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They’re better off doing the research now on the things that really matter. Eg keeping downforce on the car but lessen the drag penalty associated with it. The optimising of the package can come in the windtunnel next year. The big gain to be had is to improve the above characteristic. Other than that it’s there or thereabouts.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:08 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:01 pm
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:47 pm


That wasn't in the article, it was just his opinion. It's a shame we might not find out in reality though.

The budget cap is important for F1 for sure, but I'm not feeling so great about it given the current economic circumstances.
What I read was "Since 99% of the 2022 car was NEW, it cost 30 Million more than the 2023 car will." The 30 Million will vary from teams to team depending on how much they cary over.

The other thing about the CAP we don't know is "how much of the 2022 car was built using 2021 budget vs 2022 budget". How much did McLaren spend in 2021 on the 2021 car trying to stay ahead of Ferrari that they could have put into the 2022 car? Let's face it the 2021 baby was one of those rare occasions that we through the baby out WITH the bath water!
I have wondered how it works. Is the budget cap for a calendar year or for a specific car? If it would be for a specific period then this years car was possibly not subjected to budget constraints? But now we have a calendar period in which they have to develop the MCL36 and create the MCL37. In a way it is more reassuring if this years car was built without a cap, because if it was built IN the cap, then you'd argue that the issue may be the design and engineering talent at our disposal.

You're right about 2021, silly decision not to focus on the MCL36 and the reason for us being a bit behind this year.
There was a budget cap in place last season as well, just higher than this year and the rumours were that only the big 3 teams were hitting it, though I heard others suggest McLaren did as well.
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mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:00 pm
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:08 pm
diffuser wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 7:01 pm


What I read was "Since 99% of the 2022 car was NEW, it cost 30 Million more than the 2023 car will." The 30 Million will vary from teams to team depending on how much they cary over.

The other thing about the CAP we don't know is "how much of the 2022 car was built using 2021 budget vs 2022 budget". How much did McLaren spend in 2021 on the 2021 car trying to stay ahead of Ferrari that they could have put into the 2022 car? Let's face it the 2021 baby was one of those rare occasions that we through the baby out WITH the bath water!
I have wondered how it works. Is the budget cap for a calendar year or for a specific car? If it would be for a specific period then this years car was possibly not subjected to budget constraints? But now we have a calendar period in which they have to develop the MCL36 and create the MCL37. In a way it is more reassuring if this years car was built without a cap, because if it was built IN the cap, then you'd argue that the issue may be the design and engineering talent at our disposal.

You're right about 2021, silly decision not to focus on the MCL36 and the reason for us being a bit behind this year.
There was a budget cap in place last season as well, just higher than this year and the rumours were that only the big 3 teams were hitting it, though I heard others suggest McLaren did as well.
Have the 2021 accounts been released yet I wonder?

The MCL36 was pushed down the order to try and beat Ferrari and now we are between a rock and a hard place. It has taken the shine of the Mclaren Resurgence that is for sure, and I think that is the main issue most have. I just hope that the design and engineering team we have can shine in this new era and demonstrate their talents.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 am
They’re better off doing the research now on the things that really matter. Eg keeping downforce on the car but lessen the drag penalty associated with it. The optimising of the package can come in the windtunnel next year. The big gain to be had is to improve the above characteristic. Other than that it’s there or thereabouts.
It's not that easy to predict what they might do.

If the team feel that this cars philosophy could do the job then they might be able to put developments for next years car on this years car.

However if we stop seeing developments as they focus on the MCL37 then it suggests that perhaps there is little compatibility between this and next years car and that could suggest they have ditched the current philosophy.

That doesn't mean it can't be developed if they had the budget, just that they can only do the 37 or the 36 and they are mutually exclusive. Time will tell but it is certainly not where we want to be and it may not all just down to the budget cap.

Others who are happy with their philosophy may choose to carry this car over and continue development, helping to create advantages for this year and the next. Those who are not have a real disadvantage. There isn't a huge amount of leeway once you fall behind in the current economic climate and you can't financially afford to take advantage of the CFD or wind tunnel time you might get from falling back.
Last edited by mwillems on Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

mwillems
mwillems
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 am
They’re better off doing the research now on the things that really matter. Eg keeping downforce on the car but lessen the drag penalty associated with it. The optimising of the package can come in the windtunnel next year. The big gain to be had is to improve the above characteristic. Other than that it’s there or thereabouts.
The wind tunnel will come well after much of the design of the MCL37 nor is it the golden egg.
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Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:55 pm
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:44 am
They’re better off doing the research now on the things that really matter. Eg keeping downforce on the car but lessen the drag penalty associated with it. The optimising of the package can come in the windtunnel next year. The big gain to be had is to improve the above characteristic. Other than that it’s there or thereabouts.
The wind tunnel will come well after much of the design of the MCL37 nor is it the golden egg.
Not like you can throw out all the wind tunnel time you have now and NOT expect a HUGE amount on time to catch up later.
Last edited by diffuser on Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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mwillems wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:48 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:00 pm
mwillems wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 10:08 pm


I have wondered how it works. Is the budget cap for a calendar year or for a specific car? If it would be for a specific period then this years car was possibly not subjected to budget constraints? But now we have a calendar period in which they have to develop the MCL36 and create the MCL37. In a way it is more reassuring if this years car was built without a cap, because if it was built IN the cap, then you'd argue that the issue may be the design and engineering talent at our disposal.

You're right about 2021, silly decision not to focus on the MCL36 and the reason for us being a bit behind this year.
There was a budget cap in place last season as well, just higher than this year and the rumours were that only the big 3 teams were hitting it, though I heard others suggest McLaren did as well.
Have the 2021 accounts been released yet I wonder?

The MCL36 was pushed down the order to try and beat Ferrari and now we are between a rock and a hard place. It has taken the shine of the Mclaren Resurgence that is for sure, and I think that is the main issue most have. I just hope that the design and engineering team we have can shine in this new era and demonstrate their talents.
Yes, they have. You might remember about a month ago Williams got a penalty for filing late AND had to the absorbe the costs for the FIA to perform an audit. Double the penality.


Basically Teams that pushed hard late last year and ended up using less of thier 2021 budget towards thier 2022 car are now looking for an increased budget cause they're running out of cash.

Pretty sure that a team like Alpine built most of the 2022 car with the 2021 budget. That's left them with the whole 141.2 million to work on upgrades of the 2022 car. The 2023 budget will just keep updating the 2022 car cause it is just an extension of the 2022.

CjC
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:16 pm
mwillems wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:48 pm
adrianjordan wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:00 pm


There was a budget cap in place last season as well, just higher than this year and the rumours were that only the big 3 teams were hitting it, though I heard others suggest McLaren did as well.
Have the 2021 accounts been released yet I wonder?

The MCL36 was pushed down the order to try and beat Ferrari and now we are between a rock and a hard place. It has taken the shine of the Mclaren Resurgence that is for sure, and I think that is the main issue most have. I just hope that the design and engineering team we have can shine in this new era and demonstrate their talents.
Yes, they have. You might remember about a month ago Williams got a penalty for filing late AND had to the absorbe the costs for the FIA to perform an audit. Double the penality.


Basically Teams that pushed hard late last year and ended up using less of thier 2021 budget towards thier 2022 car are now looking for an increased budget cause they're running out of cash.

Pretty sure that a team like Alpine built most of the 2022 car with the 2021 budget. That's left them with the whole 141.2 million to work on upgrades of the 2022 car. The 2023 budget will just keep updating the 2022 car cause it is just an extension of the 2022.
I was going to ask if anyone had any thoughts as to why Alpine can heavily update the car this season apposed to Mclaren who have hit a brick wall.
If you are right then that explains why Alpine are relentlessly churning out upgrades this season. They could get to the front by the end of the season at this rate.
Just a fan's point of view

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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CjC wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:36 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:16 pm
mwillems wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:48 pm


Have the 2021 accounts been released yet I wonder?

The MCL36 was pushed down the order to try and beat Ferrari and now we are between a rock and a hard place. It has taken the shine of the Mclaren Resurgence that is for sure, and I think that is the main issue most have. I just hope that the design and engineering team we have can shine in this new era and demonstrate their talents.
Yes, they have. You might remember about a month ago Williams got a penalty for filing late AND had to the absorbe the costs for the FIA to perform an audit. Double the penality.


Basically Teams that pushed hard late last year and ended up using less of thier 2021 budget towards thier 2022 car are now looking for an increased budget cause they're running out of cash.

Pretty sure that a team like Alpine built most of the 2022 car with the 2021 budget. That's left them with the whole 141.2 million to work on upgrades of the 2022 car. The 2023 budget will just keep updating the 2022 car cause it is just an extension of the 2022.
I was going to ask if anyone had any thoughts as to why Alpine can heavily update the car this season apposed to Mclaren who have hit a brick wall.
If you are right then that explains why Alpine are relentlessly churning out upgrades this season. They could get to the front by the end of the season at this rate.
Alpine car is like a lego car, for example, the side floor is made of 4 or 5 seperate pieces. Instead of changing the whole floor, they can rework just a piece of it. I haven't seen that on other cars or to the same extent. Atleast I haven't noticed it elsewhere.

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continuum16
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:33 pm
CjC wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:36 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:16 pm


Yes, they have. You might remember about a month ago Williams got a penalty for filing late AND had to the absorbe the costs for the FIA to perform an audit. Double the penality.


Basically Teams that pushed hard late last year and ended up using less of thier 2021 budget towards thier 2022 car are now looking for an increased budget cause they're running out of cash.

Pretty sure that a team like Alpine built most of the 2022 car with the 2021 budget. That's left them with the whole 141.2 million to work on upgrades of the 2022 car. The 2023 budget will just keep updating the 2022 car cause it is just an extension of the 2022.
I was going to ask if anyone had any thoughts as to why Alpine can heavily update the car this season apposed to Mclaren who have hit a brick wall.
If you are right then that explains why Alpine are relentlessly churning out upgrades this season. They could get to the front by the end of the season at this rate.
Alpine car is like a lego car, for example, the side floor is made of 4 or 5 seperate pieces. Instead of changing the whole floor, they can rework just a piece of it. I haven't seen that on other cars or to the same extent. Atleast I haven't noticed it elsewhere.
I've also noticed that. I would be shocked if more teams don't follow this philosophy next year, given that Alpine seems to be the only team that has pursued a "normal" development rate.
I was an American F1 fan before it was cool…

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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continuum16 wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:38 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 10:33 pm
CjC wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 9:36 pm


I was going to ask if anyone had any thoughts as to why Alpine can heavily update the car this season apposed to Mclaren who have hit a brick wall.
If you are right then that explains why Alpine are relentlessly churning out upgrades this season. They could get to the front by the end of the season at this rate.
Alpine car is like a lego car, for example, the side floor is made of 4 or 5 seperate pieces. Instead of changing the whole floor, they can rework just a piece of it. I haven't seen that on other cars or to the same extent. Atleast I haven't noticed it elsewhere.
I've also noticed that. I would be shocked if more teams don't follow this philosophy next year, given that Alpine seems to be the only team that has pursued a "normal" development rate.
RBR is flying with parts too. New front floor and PU cover this race. Maybe faster than Alpine. I can't explain them.

Swed3120
Swed3120
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Re: 2022 - McLaren Formula 1 Team

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Really wondering when we’ll see the Orange RB,
Williams and AMR have both now copied (to various extents) a RB/alpine style side pod.
It seems there is clear correlation between the narrowness of your pods and the amount of drag produced.
The only 2 cars left with the part exposed floor and narrow pods are McLaren and Mercedes. Both of which have absolutely massive drag issues