FIA Thread

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DDopey
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Re: FIA Thread

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GrizzleBoy wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 8:37 am
- you brake late into T1 and give yourself a compromised line into T2 that puts you on a route to cut sideways across the racing line (and therefore other cars) instead of at least being parallel to it but just out of position, and

- you are not alongside enough into T2 until the moment your dive bomb (I. E the only reason you ever got alongside) ends up in contact because you kept your foot in despite now admitting in post race interviews that you knew the space was not going to be there and did nothing to avoid contact despite being the car behind with no blind spot issues etc.

Well the blame is on you for that.

Max wasn't looking at making that corner, he was looking at making sure that his car simply stayed to the right of Hamilton at all times, even if it meant shoving Hamilton off at T2 exit, which is exactly where Maxs car was headed, with his foot planted.
We have seen people braking too late for T1 and then they would not even be able to make T2 but just go over the runway area. T1 you cannot take with too much speed and then point your car in the other direction for T2.
Max the slowed down for T2 to make that corner which gave Lewis the chance to cut in front of him. Don’t see how that is a divebomb.

My problem with the stewards is that they ruled on old rules. The old rules treated an S-bent or chicane as one, the new rules treat each corner separately which has now not been applied.

basti313
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Re: FIA Thread

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:35 pm
I'm absolutely gobsmacked with some of the responses.
It really does seem, that many believe Max can do no wrong and it is for others "ALWAYS" to get themselves out of his way.
Even when considered by Stewards and explanation give, it is them that is wrong, not themselves or Max.
Max even admitted it and still adamant his is the offended party.

:lol:
For the record: For me it would have been the same penalty for both if anything. I am fine with a penalty for Ver and Ham, even a drive through would be totally fine if they just crash into each other.

It is not about Max. In any other series you have to leave space. Period. You are not allowed to just crash into another car and make claims about my corner or your corner. Just like the F1 drivers usually manage as long as it is not Ocon, Stroll, Ver or Ham involved.
DDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:57 pm
My problem with the stewards is that they ruled on old rules. The old rules treated an S-bent or chicane as one, the new rules treat each corner separately which has now not been applied.
There are not even new "rules". If the FIA would follow its own rules and how they are used in any other series the drivers would need to leave space. Even people here are speaking about "rules of engagement" a wording that was introduced by Mercedes to judge somehow the fight between Ham and Ros. But these "Mercedes rules" always had in mind that one car takes the corner, the other one yields. No side-by-side racing. This is just killing the action.
I have no idea why the race directors are not following the usual rules. They do it in a solid and sometimes strange way with the track limits, why do they need a stupid exception on crashing in F1?
The same goes with penalties. In every other series you get a drive through if you turn around another car by hitting its rear wheel or diffusor. In F1 you get a 5sec penalty...I have no idea why they do such nonsense.

Example with correct interpretation:

Jejking
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Re: FIA Thread

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west52keep64 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 12:05 am
101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 11:55 pm
So pretty much what the vast majority here have seen too. HAM could have left more space, which would have been no problem for him to do. If VER gone in too hot, he would have understeered straight on and looked like a right muppet.
It’s got so many shades of Silverstone about it but protagonist and antagonist are the other way around. Even the stewards wording is eerily similar 😂
I think it's interesting Max has admitted he treats Hamilton differently on track. We've seen it this year, and how he races differently against Leclerc versus how he did with Hamilton last year. Last year there was a WDC at stake, but today it's much harder to explain it away so easily. What makes Hamilton so different from the 19 other drivers? 🤔
I think Verstappen sees Hamilton as the old guard, especially after everything that happened last year. There it became obvious he treats him differently, he nearly always put Hamilton in a position to either back out or crash, with some moves that are not even close to being hard but respectful. Hamilton became clearly more careful wheel to wheel, less balls-to-the-wall then, to think longterm about the championship. This can make a driver feel superior to one another, in this case Verstappen possibly feeling mentally having Hamilton in the bag. It seemed he wrongly assumed Hamilton would throw the red carpet out for him in 2022 as well, this time in T2.

Jejking
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Re: FIA Thread

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Also I'm surprised in a FIA mistake collection thread to literally see zero mention of FIA completely fluffing up the Safety Car period, mainly putting Tsunoda on a severe disadvantage. He got screwed out of a fair chance to reclaim his lap together with both Williams drivers, who were allowed through.

Next to that, the SC stayed out wayyy too long for a simple McLaren shoving job. They had all the space of the world when the marshalls passed the barrier right behind Norris.

AR3-GP
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Re: FIA Thread

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 2:38 pm
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:35 pm
I'm absolutely gobsmacked with some of the responses.
It really does seem, that many believe Max can do no wrong and it is for others "ALWAYS" to get themselves out of his way.
Even when considered by Stewards and explanation give, it is them that is wrong, not themselves or Max.
Max even admitted it and still adamant his is the offended party.

:lol:
For the record: For me it would have been the same penalty for both if anything. I am fine with a penalty for Ver and Ham, even a drive through would be totally fine if they just crash into each other.

It is not about Max. In any other series you have to leave space. Period. You are not allowed to just crash into another car and make claims about my corner or your corner. Just like the F1 drivers usually manage as long as it is not Ocon, Stroll, Ver or Ham involved.
DDopey wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:57 pm
My problem with the stewards is that they ruled on old rules. The old rules treated an S-bent or chicane as one, the new rules treat each corner separately which has now not been applied.
There are not even new "rules". If the FIA would follow its own rules and how they are used in any other series the drivers would need to leave space. Even people here are speaking about "rules of engagement" a wording that was introduced by Mercedes to judge somehow the fight between Ham and Ros. But these "Mercedes rules" always had in mind that one car takes the corner, the other one yields. No side-by-side racing. This is just killing the action.
I have no idea why the race directors are not following the usual rules. They do it in a solid and sometimes strange way with the track limits, why do they need a stupid exception on crashing in F1?
The same goes with penalties. In every other series you get a drive through if you turn around another car by hitting its rear wheel or diffusor. In F1 you get a 5sec penalty...I have no idea why they do such nonsense.

Example with correct interpretation:
Old school DTM was so underrated #-o . A shame they have no idea what they were doing with the TV rights....

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Re: FIA Thread

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Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Also I'm surprised in a FIA mistake collection thread to literally see zero mention of FIA completely fluffing up the Safety Car period, mainly putting Tsunoda on a severe disadvantage. He got screwed out of a fair chance to reclaim his lap together with both Williams drivers, who were allowed through.

According to the FIA, it was because Tsunoda was lapped at an irregular moment (he pitted). There is a nuance in the SC procedure whereby if you get lapped in the pits, you don't get the lap back. You have to be lapped before the SC comes out to get a lap back. Tsunoda didn't become lapped until he pitted while the SC was out.

basti313
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Re: FIA Thread

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Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Also I'm surprised in a FIA mistake collection thread to literally see zero mention of FIA completely fluffing up the Safety Car period, mainly putting Tsunoda on a severe disadvantage. He got screwed out of a fair chance to reclaim his lap together with both Williams drivers, who were allowed through.
But in the end he did the right thing...drop back on the start finish...this is how it should work one lap earlier.
The reason why it got screwed is lex Masi. One team and the media well succeeded in cutting off the balls of the race director on SC procedures. Now we have a nice mess, nothing better, just takes longer. =D>
Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Next to that, the SC stayed out wayyy too long for a simple McLaren shoving job. They had all the space of the world when the marshalls passed the barrier right behind Norris.
No. The car was parked in a shitty way. As with Ricciardo in Monza they could not roll the car at the first attempts and it was standing at the wrong side of the track where there is no exit as it is only a separation wall. They called the SC as they thought they need the truck but got it moving right after calling the SC.
Usual fault of the drivers, they neither know where to park the car nor do they give a $hit about parking well. Like the car is a donkey that you only have to give a clap so that it moves away.
Lando could have just stayed on the outside and parked in on the exit there or let it roll downhill to the next exit. Instead he just pulled over and stopped where no exit is in a way that it can not even be rolled away. No blame on him, it is just the rule that allows him this, so he did everything he needed, the rule is the issue.

As long as they do not hand out a penalty when the car is not brought to a save position this will go on with such long and avoidable safety cars. Just like Tsunoda...oh well, we do not know if it survives, so just send it out of the pits and park it somewhere on the gras....
AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:16 pm


Old school DTM was so underrated #-o . A shame they have no idea what they were doing with the TV rights....
Absolutely. These Class1 cars were monsters in on track battles in the bullet proof aero version. But I think the cost killed them. Now with GT3 cars the racing is still extremely good, but the speed and grip is not there anymore. Still much better racing than F1 with this stupid crashing into each other without penalty.

Jejking
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Re: FIA Thread

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basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:33 pm
Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Also I'm surprised in a FIA mistake collection thread to literally see zero mention of FIA completely fluffing up the Safety Car period, mainly putting Tsunoda on a severe disadvantage. He got screwed out of a fair chance to reclaim his lap together with both Williams drivers, who were allowed through.
But in the end he did the right thing...drop back on the start finish...this is how it should work one lap earlier.
The reason why it got screwed is lex Masi. One team and the media well succeeded in cutting off the balls of the race director on SC procedures. Now we have a nice mess, nothing better, just takes longer. =D>
Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Next to that, the SC stayed out wayyy too long for a simple McLaren shoving job. They had all the space of the world when the marshalls passed the barrier right behind Norris.
No. The car was parked in a shitty way. As with Ricciardo in Monza they could not roll the car at the first attempts and it was standing at the wrong side of the track where there is no exit as it is only a separation wall. They called the SC as they thought they need the truck but got it moving right after calling the SC.
Usual fault of the drivers, they neither know where to park the car nor do they give a $hit about parking well. Like the car is a donkey that you only have to give a clap so that it moves away.
Lando could have just stayed on the outside and parked in on the exit there or let it roll downhill to the next exit. Instead he just pulled over and stopped where no exit is in a way that it can not even be rolled away. No blame on him, it is just the rule that allows him this, so he did everything he needed, the rule is the issue.

As long as they do not hand out a penalty when the car is not brought to a save position this will go on with such long and avoidable safety cars. Just like Tsunoda...oh well, we do not know if it survives, so just send it out of the pits and park it somewhere on the gras....
AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:16 pm


Old school DTM was so underrated #-o . A shame they have no idea what they were doing with the TV rights....
Absolutely. These Class1 cars were monsters in on track battles in the bullet proof aero version. But I think the cost killed them. Now with GT3 cars the racing is still extremely good, but the speed and grip is not there anymore. Still much better racing than F1 with this stupid crashing into each other without penalty.
1:19 into the race Norris stepped out of his car. 6.5 minutes later the marshalls leave it parked on that spot. Took around 6 more minutes to go racing again. You're not going to tell me this is normal and can be blamed on anyone except the race directors. I want to know what they were doing in that meantime: ample of time to tell where everybody is in the pecking order.

Gooch
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Re: FIA Thread

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If you every watch an Indycar race you'll call that turn around lightning quick. :lol:

mwillems
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Re: FIA Thread

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101FlyingDutchman wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:10 am
f1jcw wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:05 am
Lewis didn’t have to leave him room
Max braked too late to make the corner

But max mentality is give me space or we crash which is a disgusting attitude.
And this is where you are just wrong. Even the stewards noted so.

For the other comments, you’re of course entitled to believe that but it hasn’t been on show with anyone else. So seemingly the attitude both have adopted is poisoning what could be epic battling
Max was very aggressive with his move and didn't really have a chance to make that corner without compromising other drivers who would have to take avoiding manoeuvres to stop a crash.
Max can be as aggressive like that if he wants to, but he has to expect that aggression back, and you can see that Hamilton has adopted that attitude that he will no longer yield for Max.

The question for me is why? Max has always been aggressive, weaved in the braking zone, used more elbows forcing people off the track and taking their racing space and generally gone further than other drives to gain a place or prevent an overtake, it was well known that when he joined he was a couple of levels more aggressive than anyone else and that the FIA were letting things go from Max that they would have previously penalised because it was turning on the fanbase and making the sport more exciting.

Hamilton was never really like that and fought well with everyone. This version of Hamilton is a reaction to the racing circumstances IMO, which is to say if he rolled over for Max's aggression, then he mayaswell just retire because he will just be muscled out of the way. What choice does he have?
Give a man a fire, and he will be warm for a night.
Set a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

basti313
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Re: FIA Thread

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Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:50 pm
basti313 wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 5:33 pm
Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Also I'm surprised in a FIA mistake collection thread to literally see zero mention of FIA completely fluffing up the Safety Car period, mainly putting Tsunoda on a severe disadvantage. He got screwed out of a fair chance to reclaim his lap together with both Williams drivers, who were allowed through.
But in the end he did the right thing...drop back on the start finish...this is how it should work one lap earlier.
The reason why it got screwed is lex Masi. One team and the media well succeeded in cutting off the balls of the race director on SC procedures. Now we have a nice mess, nothing better, just takes longer. =D>
Jejking wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 3:02 pm
Next to that, the SC stayed out wayyy too long for a simple McLaren shoving job. They had all the space of the world when the marshalls passed the barrier right behind Norris.
No. The car was parked in a shitty way. As with Ricciardo in Monza they could not roll the car at the first attempts and it was standing at the wrong side of the track where there is no exit as it is only a separation wall. They called the SC as they thought they need the truck but got it moving right after calling the SC.
Usual fault of the drivers, they neither know where to park the car nor do they give a $hit about parking well. Like the car is a donkey that you only have to give a clap so that it moves away.
Lando could have just stayed on the outside and parked in on the exit there or let it roll downhill to the next exit. Instead he just pulled over and stopped where no exit is in a way that it can not even be rolled away. No blame on him, it is just the rule that allows him this, so he did everything he needed, the rule is the issue.

As long as they do not hand out a penalty when the car is not brought to a save position this will go on with such long and avoidable safety cars. Just like Tsunoda...oh well, we do not know if it survives, so just send it out of the pits and park it somewhere on the gras....
AR3-GP wrote:
Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:16 pm


Old school DTM was so underrated #-o . A shame they have no idea what they were doing with the TV rights....
Absolutely. These Class1 cars were monsters in on track battles in the bullet proof aero version. But I think the cost killed them. Now with GT3 cars the racing is still extremely good, but the speed and grip is not there anymore. Still much better racing than F1 with this stupid crashing into each other without penalty.
1:19 into the race Norris stepped out of his car. 6.5 minutes later the marshalls leave it parked on that spot. Took around 6 more minutes to go racing again. You're not going to tell me this is normal and can be blamed on anyone except the race directors. I want to know what they were doing in that meantime: ample of time to tell where everybody is in the pecking order.
It was 2 laps, each around 1.5min under VSC/not caught and 5 laps under SC.
If the car would have been parked further down or on the other side on the exit with the driver inside, it would have been maximum half a lap of VSC to push the car into the exit. Less than the time Lando took to get out of the car.
They took more than one lap under VSC to find out they can not push the car, one lap later they started to push it. They did not show where they pushed it, but it looked like they wanted to cross the track. I would asume it was something like 2 laps to clean the car away.

Then it took 3 laps...one lap to find out, yes, track is REALLY clear. Once this was clear the field just crossed the line, so one lap to release some of the backmarkers. And then one lap extra for Mercedes.

The last three laps is not the race director anymore, it is the rule.

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diffuser
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Re: FIA Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 8:51 pm
Another race with FIA mega-joke penalties during the race. Max penalized while being squeezed out of the corner and Norris getting only 5s...
I was talking about this on the McLaren thread. The penalty isn't the problem, so much as, there should be a bonus 60 second penalty for being "at fault" and causing a DNF collision. Naturally, if both cars get DNF'd, there no need for it.

Mind you, that wouldn't have helped in this instance. I think the biggest disparity occurs when one car gets DNF'd.

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diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:50 pm
I was talking about this on the McLaren thread. The penalty isn't the problem, so much as, there should be a bonus 60 second penalty for being "at fault" and causing a DNF collision. Naturally, if both cars get DNF'd, there no need for it.

Mind you, that wouldn't have helped in this instance. I think the biggest disparity occurs when one car gets DNF'd.
I think some time ago someone from FIA, might have been Whiting himself even, said that the consequence of the collision must no have any effect on the judgement and penalty. Meaning, if someone makes a really tiny driving error without any evidence or context suggesting intent and the consequence is DNF for the other car, driver who made a tiny error must not be exposed to draconian penalties simply because unfortunate turn of events struck the other car.

This makes sense, but again how to judge if error was innocent or intentional and distinguish intentional errors? It's racing, as in life it should be innocent until proven guilty. If judges would start reading intent of crashes, that would make all drivers more conservative and would not promote good close racing.
And they call it a stall. A STALL!

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Big Tea
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Re: FIA Thread

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Vanja #66 wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 2:06 pm
diffuser wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 1:50 pm
I was talking about this on the McLaren thread. The penalty isn't the problem, so much as, there should be a bonus 60 second penalty for being "at fault" and causing a DNF collision. Naturally, if both cars get DNF'd, there no need for it.

Mind you, that wouldn't have helped in this instance. I think the biggest disparity occurs when one car gets DNF'd.
I think some time ago someone from FIA, might have been Whiting himself even, said that the consequence of the collision must no have any effect on the judgement and penalty. Meaning, if someone makes a really tiny driving error without any evidence or context suggesting intent and the consequence is DNF for the other car, driver who made a tiny error must not be exposed to draconian penalties simply because unfortunate turn of events struck the other car.

This makes sense, but again how to judge if error was innocent or intentional and distinguish intentional errors? It's racing, as in life it should be innocent until proven guilty. If judges would start reading intent of crashes, that would make all drivers more conservative and would not promote good close racing.
You would not expect a life imprisonment for parking on yellow lines.
Even if it stopped a fire engine getting through and someone was trapped.

(I am expecting at least one reply of 'yes I would' :mrgreen: )
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Re: FIA Thread

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I searched a bit on referee and protests, protests appear in all sports with a form of regulation.
The common factor is ;player or fan objects to the -regulated- decision because he or she deemed it unfair.
Almost never in any sport the rules are changed for that reason.
Why doesn’t the whole f1 fan base -now -protests against the Max time penalty ?
The answer some do but most don’t.
Rules should be kept up to date, but not be made to fit the player, or fan who believes he is treated unfair.
The rules were changed after last years- unmentionable-race. When the whole of f1 stood up.
If you feel you are treated unfair, so be it. I do also sometimes.
But the rules are there, and contrary to Pirates of the Caribbean, the F1 code is not a guideline .
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