2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:31 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:27 pm
FWIW, Sky F1 have heard noises out of the Mercedes camp that they’re pleased with how their ‘22 challenger is looking. The noise out of Ferrari are loudest at the moment though.
Hmmm, the perpetual underdog is happy with the car? That looks ominous for the others :twisted:
Maybe. My gut feeling is Ferrari are fighting Mercedes this season. But of course, I’m only saying that based on the noises we are hearing. But even before then, I felt like they are the favourites to be at the front this season.

Can you imagine a 4 way title fight? 2 teams with TWO drivers that are likely to push their own team mates as much as eache other? =P~
Four teams with at least six drivers fighting for it sounds even better!
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:54 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:31 pm


Hmmm, the perpetual underdog is happy with the car? That looks ominous for the others :twisted:
Maybe. My gut feeling is Ferrari are fighting Mercedes this season. But of course, I’m only saying that based on the noises we are hearing. But even before then, I felt like they are the favourites to be at the front this season.

Can you imagine a 4 way title fight? 2 teams with TWO drivers that are likely to push their own team mates as much as eache other? =P~
Four teams with at least six drivers fighting for it sounds even better!
I think Mclaren will be there about, and AT is not that far behind Red Bull (well, one of them)
When arguing with a fool, be sure the other person is not doing the same thing.

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Ryar
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 5:54 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:34 pm
Big Tea wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:31 pm


Hmmm, the perpetual underdog is happy with the car? That looks ominous for the others :twisted:
Maybe. My gut feeling is Ferrari are fighting Mercedes this season. But of course, I’m only saying that based on the noises we are hearing. But even before then, I felt like they are the favourites to be at the front this season.

Can you imagine a 4 way title fight? 2 teams with TWO drivers that are likely to push their own team mates as much as eache other? =P~
Four teams with at least six drivers fighting for it sounds even better!
Do you imagine your life as a mod if that happens? :D
I already wished for it, hope we see that.
Hakuna Matata!

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Stu
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Better than a two-way fight, the same amount of --- will get spread more thinly around more pages….
The more that I learn, the more I appreciate how much more there is to know….

Henri
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:27 pm
FWIW, Sky F1 have heard noises out of the Mercedes camp that they’re pleased with how their ‘22 challenger is looking. The noise out of Ferrari are loudest at the moment though.
I doubt ferrari will challenge they have not built good chassis since 2018.. the 2019 car had the most powerful engine in f1 history but had low quality chassis and aero and the car was a dog

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Mike Elliot is a top talent. He has won titles with Hamilton in two different teams when he was playing a large role in the aerodynamic concept of his cars. He also gave Lotus / Renault some competitive challengers.

People often credit MSC for Mercedes building winning cars but if you look at the pattern of Mike Elliot joining and the 2013 challenger being more of his work, you could argue he was a significant cog ⚙️ in the Mercedes winning machine when it came to the car. After all, he was very much involved in the very fast McLaren’s in the early 2000’s when he helped Kimi challenge for some world titles with a very, very fast challenger. They didn’t need Michael then when working with Newey.

The 2013 Mercedes was very fast; it secured just shy of 50% of the poles that year. The Mercedes engine was a masterclass in the hybrid era but it wasn’t all the silver bullet. It wasn’t the only car using that engine. The regs had changed significantly since, and under Hamilton / Rosberg / Bottas, Mercedes challengers have clearly not needed MSC to be competitive. In fact, under Hamilton, as they developed the car more to his liking, they just got stronger as they did in 2020.

Image

How much did Mercedes need James Allison to win? They were winning before him and They are still winning. I’m sure James Allison had great strengths that might make Mercedes technical team more susceptible to setbacks somewhere in some way without him being more closely involved but I don’t think they’ll be going slower without him. James had even hinted that he didn’t feel needed when he talked about his own ‘shelf life’

My question is, instead of things getting worse without James Allison, could things get better under Mike Elliot’s greater leadership role?

f1jcw
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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People often credit MSC for Mercedes building winning cars
Please say MSC stands for something other then Michael Schumacher.

The only people I have seen credit MS for Mercedes competitiveness are massive MS fans.

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Ryar
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:37 pm
People often credit MSC for Mercedes building winning cars
Please say MSC stands for something other then Michael Schumacher.

The only people I have seen credit MS for Mercedes competitiveness are massive MS fans.
https://www.racefans.net/2019/01/03/sch ... ess-brawn/
Schumacher was key to Mercedes’ championship success – Brawn
“Andrew Shovlin said to me, especially when they won their first world championship and I was talking to him about it, he said Michael had an awful lot to do with us winning this world championship.”
Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff described Schumacher as “one of the founding fathers of the success we have had in the last five years.”
Hakuna Matata!

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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I think MS should be given credit. But it’s never been elaborated on what ways he helped them. From the Mercedes’ podcast last year, it wasn’t to my memory, implied that he helped them build a faster car, but brought leadership, mentality, how to compete / operate like champions.

After all, MS is not a car designer, and there’s been many teams winning in fast cars without him. Ferrari wasn’t exactly winning with fast cars as soon as he went there in 96. It took years, and a lot of top Benetton people (some of which went to Brawn / Mercedes again) for Michael to begin winning.

I can’t help but also feel these sentiments are also driven out of respect, love, and appreciation for Michael more than they are to say ‘we couldn’t have without Michael’ after all.. was Michael there in that team to beat Jenson to the title in 2009? No, he was not. They were already winners and champions on their own.
Last edited by AeroDynamic on Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

f1jcw
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:21 pm

I can’t help but also feel these sentiments are also driven out of respect, love, and appreciation for Michael more than they are to say ‘we couldn’t have without Michael’
Thats what I feel aswell.

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Ryar
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:21 pm
I think MS should be given credit. But it’s never been elaborated on what ways he helped them. From the Mercedes’ podcast last year, it wasn’t to my memory, implied that he helped them build a faster car, but brought leadership, mentality, how to compete / operate like champions.

After all, MS is not a car designer, and there’s been many teams winning in fast cars without him. Ferrari wasn’t exactly winning with fast cars as soon as he went there in 96. It took years, and a lot of top Benetton people (some of which went to Brawn / Mercedes again) for Michael to begin winning.

I can’t help but also feel these sentiments are also driven out of respect, love, and appreciation for Michael more than they are to say ‘we couldn’t have without Michael’ after all.. was Michael there in that team to beat Jenson to the title in 2009? No, he was not. They were already winners and champions on their own.
No individual can ever create a winning team, regardless of how talented that individual is. Some individuals have bigger impact than others with motivation, instilling confidence and inspiring with winning approach. In words of Brawn, who was the central cog of Mercedes success, Schumacher influenced other individuals feel a sense of purpose and if someone of his stature is saying something, people would listen and are willing to act on it. He was no engineer, but with all his experience, he could potentially provide extremely critical insights on car development. IMO, his contribution to the team was more about bringing winning mentality and a sense of confidence, which was critical in those days for Mercedes.
Hakuna Matata!

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El Scorchio
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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f1jcw wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:24 pm
AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 1:21 pm

I can’t help but also feel these sentiments are also driven out of respect, love, and appreciation for Michael more than they are to say ‘we couldn’t have without Michael’
Thats what I feel aswell.
Agree with the above. Some of it is maybe lipservice because that's just what you do, especially considering what's happened to him. I think also he just brought a bit of that 'winner's' mentality and from what I hear he was good at galvanising the team and giving belief, which is important- especially when a boost is needed. Psychology is key as we know.
But he would hardly have been designing suspension elements, telling the engineers what to do or building bits of engine.

Just being a figurehead to rally round can be enough. Just like Hamilton now, just like Verstappen at RBR, just like Alonso at Alpine, I expect.

I think you can't dismiss any influence he may have had, but it can be very easily overstated. Especially if someone was trying to diminish or downplay the role of any subsequent Mercedes drivers toward any success the team has had.

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AeroDynamic
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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Yeah I agree. I don’t think I would say Michael was ‘critical’ in any way. I would say he helped push the team to get the best out of themselves basically. That little extra 10% difference sort of thing. You don’t get more confidence from anything other than winning races and titles, which they did do before he got there. The team wasn’t working wonders while he was there, but it did improve noticeably in 2013 after more key people like Elliot seemed to arrive. McLaren cars didn’t get slower when Elliot left in 2008, just less reliable. But we can say McLaren didn’t get anywhere after Hamilton left them, and Alonso joined them.

Hamilton and Elliot reunited in 2013 in the Mercedes team. And I think both of them should be given credit for the success of Mercedes, as should Toto. I think Brawn gets the credit for building the team but I think they would’ve grown very complacent under him, I think Toto is stronger in the leadership area.

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Sun Jan 16, 2022 12:27 pm
FWIW, Sky F1 have heard noises out of the Mercedes camp that they’re pleased with how their ‘22 challenger is looking. The noise out of Ferrari are loudest at the moment though.
The Italians being noisy is just par for the course though :lol: :lol:
Felipe Baby!

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SiLo
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Re: 2022 Mercedes | AMG Petronas F1 Team

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AeroDynamic wrote:
Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:09 pm
Yeah I agree. I don’t think I would say Michael was ‘critical’ in any way. I would say he helped push the team to get the best out of themselves basically. That little extra 10% difference sort of thing. You don’t get more confidence from anything other than winning races and titles, which they did do before he got there. The team wasn’t working wonders while he was there, but it did improve noticeably in 2013 after more key people like Elliot seemed to arrive. McLaren cars didn’t get slower when Elliot left in 2008, just less reliable. But we can say McLaren didn’t get anywhere after Hamilton left them, and Alonso joined them.

Hamilton and Elliot reunited in 2013 in the Mercedes team. And I think both of them should be given credit for the success of Mercedes, as should Toto. I think Brawn gets the credit for building the team but I think they would’ve grown very complacent under him, I think Toto is stronger in the leadership area.
I see so many hark on about Schumacher building a team, as if he went and personally signed all the people in technical and management roles himself.

Personally, I think Brawn gave Mercedes a fantastic structure and base to build from, and bringing in Lewis was akin to bringing in Michael at Ferrari. There is a common denominator there. I also agree that Toto has seemingly driven them farther than maybe they would have gotten under Brawn, and I think Brawn realised that he wasn't needed and could pursue other things.

The more stories that come out about how hard Hamilton works just helps solidify his status about being involved in helping build the team the same way Schumacher did at Ferrari.
Felipe Baby!