2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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zibby43
zibby43
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Re: Mercedes Power Unit Hardware & Software

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AR3-GP wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:18 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:53 am
GhostF1 wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 7:42 am


Qualifying Team Average Speed Trap (FIA):

RBR: 334.5kmh
MER: 326.0kmh
FEZ: 324.8kmh

Mix that with what looks to be a clear lack of downforce comparatively to RBR and Ferrari, the fact McLaren are the slowest on the grid here with Aston also bottom half and this trend looks very much the same since the start of the season... You start to run out of good arguments against the fact they must be a little down on power at the moment.
Where is the clear lack of downforce? Merc's Friday pace was genuine. In a piece I read today, Russell's fuel and PU-mode corrected race sims on Friday had him 0.2s off of LEC.

Aren't Mercedes still the fastest in slow corners (according to Lando Norris)? They would also be inconsistent with a "clear lack of downforce."
If they aren't lacking downforce (according to you), and they aren't lacking straightline speed (also according to you), then why on earth are they so slow :wtf:
Ever heard of porpoising?

If you have to lift in fast corners and on straights to reduce porpoising running low (hemorrhaging lap time), or raise the ride height and lose efficient downforce (hemorrhaging lap time), you’re going to be slower.

Mercedes’ porpoising is also occurring at the end of the straight, negatively affecting braking stability into crucial braking zones.

None of these lap time killers have to do with lack of downforce.

McLaren are lacking downforce. They’re slow everywhere, as they have to compensate with inefficient downforce. I just shake my head when they’re used as an example to somehow drag the Merc PU.

As an aside, I see a lot of new(er) members responding in condescending or combative tones. I don’t know why. I know when I first joined, I subscribed to the “read more, post less” theory. Tried to be as respectful to the community as possible whenever I did post. Especially if I was trying to ask a question.

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S D
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2022 10:00 pm
Location: Canada

Re: Mercedes W13

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Stu wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:01 pm
Redragon wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 4:28 pm
Stu wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 2:16 pm


This year, zero chance, the mini-pods are not the cause of the problem with porpoising. The only reason that they are likely to modify the side-pods is if the cooling has to be re-packaged to fix the issue (that’s if they have to change the floor substantially).
Well it looks they are not ruling out to bring the wider sidepods as I was guessing
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433 ... t-improved
Yeah, but Toto said it, so best taken with a pinch of salt….
I don't see them having not improved in an absolute sense. I believe that when they say that, what they probably mean is that they have not improved to the point that they are gaining on the front runners. If they hadn't improved at all then they would be probably be farther down and/or being lapped.

It's like drivers saying I have zero grip or I'm sliding all over the place when in reality they are only sliding relative to when the tires were in good shape and losing the car in front or in danger of being passed.

Mercedes are just not improving fast enough to challenge for the wins and poles. I do understand their frustration as the points gap is growing each race and race car drivers are under huge pressure and at the same time are extremely competitive. Lewis finishing 4th or 6th is not what he wants but if drivers at the back of the grid get 4th - 6th they throw a party.

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ringo
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Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2009 9:57 am

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Some good overtakes by Lewis in the first stint on Alonso and Magnusen was it?
I think the car is a tiny bit better.
Overall i do not like this new formula.
The overtaking is worst than last year. The weak DRS and being able to follow so closely creates this new DRS train phenomena in the middle field. The big wheels and heavy weight just make the cars look sluggish and painfully sluggardly to drive.
I dont think the drivers enjoy driving them at all.

They need to go back to 1800mm wide and 13 inch wheels.
For Sure!!

Polarit
Polarit
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Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:18 am

Re: Mercedes W13

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Spain will tell us a lot about the season and the current f1 direction.

Some teams have got it right and others not. The jumps in performance will be large this year and red bull and Ferrari will have gotten it right this first round but it could swing.

A lot of the teams still can’t deal with the porpoising. If they do the grid line up may swing. Let’s hope we have some chaos.

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Cocles
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Re: Mercedes W13

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It seems some aren't following this very closely despite their passion and putting a lot of word into Mercedes mouth and mind-reading them. This talk of "silver bullets" and "WHERE ARE THE UPDATES?!?!?" Here's your answer:

Since the beginning of this season when the problems emerged, Merc reported they would be gathering a lot of data and would have some major upgrades on the car in Spain. After Italy, however, they reported they would probably have some updates ready early for Miami.

They showed up in Miami with the upgraded wings. They'll show up with the rest, as expected, in Spain.

Once we see those updates in Spain, which will constitute Merc's full first real attempt at fixing their issues, we'll be able to judge how things are really going. So far they're doing exactly what they said they would about their issues, and even had a few upgrades ready one race early.

elMaestro
elMaestro
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The pace on the mediums was around 1.2 to 1.3 seconds slower than Verstappen, and when the Hards came into play the gap stabilised at around 0.7 to 0.8 tenths during the race before the VSC and the safety car, but after the restart the gap was tremendous if i can say the least. If the gap after Barcelona doesnt start to come down then im going to go on and say it maybe is best to make this an experimental year and come back stronger next year.

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adrianjordan
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Joined: Sun Feb 28, 2010 10:34 am
Location: West Yorkshire, England

Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:52 am
zibby43 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:09 am
IGOSNELL wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:04 am
Getting tired of Mercedes moaning. If the floor is the problem then just replace it. Does not make sense why they don't tackle
the problem head on but they just keep on analyzing data. Seems rather strange...
lol. Pretty sure that's the exact problem they're trying to tackle. And it's a bit more difficult than you make it seem.
Stop moaning and change the floor by:

- removing the kick points to reduce extremeness
- reshape with the tunnel like contours as Red Bull which ensures there is always some airflow even if the car bottoms
- add cut outs on the edge as per Red Bull
- add the Red Bull Skates

Or keeping believing in a silver bullet that will magically make the car quicker than ever other car on the grid.
Maybe they're doing exactly that. But it takes time to understand, design, CFD test, wind tunnel test, refine and manufacture parts.

You yourself state in another post that in 2009 McLaren did the equivalent of what you're saying with the front wing concept and it took them 9 races. That during an era without a cost cap and without limitations on their CFD and windtunnel usage. Yet you expect Mercedes to make bigger changes in less time with limited resources??

You need to apply some internal logic to your arguments and understand just how massive ANY change to the floor on these cars can be.

Or do you seriously think you're more intelligent than the combined might of the Mercedes Aero department to come up with those solutions.
Favourite driver: Lando Norris
Favourite team: McLaren

Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! 🤦🏻‍♂️

AR3-GP
AR3-GP
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Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2021 12:22 am

Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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214270 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:20 pm
SuperCNJ wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 1:36 pm
PlatinumZealot wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 10:34 pm
Mercedes were hopeful of their pace but I felt they should have started Lewis on hards. Street track, mid field, third best car. Start on hards.
That's what I was thinking but they were saying that starting on the dirty side of the track was a big disadvantage and with the hards taking much longer to get into the window Lewis probably would have lost more places at the start.
The payoff would be possibly taking adv of the safety car though, but if you ask me 5 & 6th is the realistic race assignment given the car’s performance; and they achieved it. Regardless of strategy that seemed like their destiny whichever way it played out.

It doesn’t really matter in the end who was ahead, they need to find performance fast.
They hedged their bets by starting one car on mediums and one car on hards. Nothing wrong with that. It would have been riskier to have both on hards in case the hard wasn't a good race tire. There were no long runs on Friday.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes W13

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AA_2019 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:53 pm
AA_2019 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:52 am


Stop moaning and change the floor by:

- removing the kick points to reduce extremeness
- reshape with the tunnel like contours as Red Bull which ensures there is always some airflow even if the car bottoms
- add cut outs on the edge as per Red Bull
- add the Red Bull Skates

Or keeping believing in a silver bullet that will magically make the car quicker than ever other car on the grid.
To summarise:

Build the RB18.

You cannot just lift parts from another car and have it work, it's only in very rare instances that it does.

Don't be a fool, you take on board the successful concepts of others and blend it into yours.

The 4 points mentioned are transferable to any car as they are generic concepts. Obviously you need to make it work in conjunction with the rest of the car.

RB copied many subtle aspects of the Merc rear end (including suspension aspects) for the start of last year and it helped to give them the fastest car in 2021.

I remember many fools in 2009 saying the same thing as you when McLaren-Mercedes had a flawed car at the back of the grid. Back then I was saying they should copy what works which was the outwashing Brawn concept. The fools like you said you can't copy, you need to understand data, modelling, reasons for this and that [blah blah blah]... 9 races later Mclaren-Mercedes brought out the Brawn style outwashing concept and had a race winning car from day 1 of the revised B-spec car.

Merc need to take the same approach, look at what works and just do it.
Agreed. Copying always works and has been part of the sport for decades.
Some put too much mystique and complication to F1 cars. Everything can be copied. And copying saves time and resources.
A better part will be better than the part is replacing. Yes it might not be maximized if other parts are modified up stream and downstream, but there will be benefit nonethless. The team will see that something is working and then they can fine tune it to their car.
For argument stake, if ferrari sidepods were a silver bullet and merc copied it they would see an improvement over theirs; if its even 2%. Furrher development of rear wing and beam eing and turning vanes would reap more performance. Long story short copying is a major tool in F1. Mercedes can copy the ice skate, the floor and the separated nose tip over the front wing and im sure the car would improve.
For Sure!!

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SiLo
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 6:09 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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ringo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:48 pm
AA_2019 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:01 pm
SiLo wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 12:53 pm

To summarise:

Build the RB18.

You cannot just lift parts from another car and have it work, it's only in very rare instances that it does.

Don't be a fool, you take on board the successful concepts of others and blend it into yours.

The 4 points mentioned are transferable to any car as they are generic concepts. Obviously you need to make it work in conjunction with the rest of the car.

RB copied many subtle aspects of the Merc rear end (including suspension aspects) for the start of last year and it helped to give them the fastest car in 2021.

I remember many fools in 2009 saying the same thing as you when McLaren-Mercedes had a flawed car at the back of the grid. Back then I was saying they should copy what works which was the outwashing Brawn concept. The fools like you said you can't copy, you need to understand data, modelling, reasons for this and that [blah blah blah]... 9 races later Mclaren-Mercedes brought out the Brawn style outwashing concept and had a race winning car from day 1 of the revised B-spec car.

Merc need to take the same approach, look at what works and just do it.
Agreed. Copying always works and has been part of the sport for decades.
Some put too much mystique and complication to F1 cars. Everything can be copied. And copying saves time and resources.
A better part will be better than the part is replacing. Yes it might not be maximized if other parts are modified up stream and downstream, but there will be benefit nonethless. The team will see that something is working and then they can fine tune it to their car.
For argument stake, if ferrari sidepods were a silver bullet and merc copied it they would see an improvement over theirs; if its even 2%. Furrher development of rear wing and beam eing and turning vanes would reap more performance. Long story short copying is a major tool in F1. Mercedes can copy the ice skate, the floor and the separated nose tip over the front wing and im sure the car would improve.
It's really not that simple and I wish people would stop making it so. You might be able to copy some concepts if they work with your current flow structures, but as soon as you make larger, wholesale changes you need to start changing so much more of the car you're basically designing a new car entirely.
Felipe Baby!

SuperCNJ
SuperCNJ
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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A topic that seems rather trivial but may have significant implications on Merc is the issue with Lewis's jewellery. The FIA has given Lewis two race exemptions but by Monaco (27th May) this exemption expires. Lewis is not backing down. FIA are not backing down and probably can't back down now given the strong stance they have taken. There have been talks of penalty points and possibly race bans if he doesn't comply.

To me, I personally think the FIA are making a mountain out of a molehill and see no real reason to enforce this. But how bad can this get? Could LH really end up being banned from races?

matteosc
matteosc
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Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2012 4:07 pm

Re: Mercedes W13

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SiLo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 2:03 pm
ringo wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:48 pm
AA_2019 wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 6:01 pm



Don't be a fool, you take on board the successful concepts of others and blend it into yours.

The 4 points mentioned are transferable to any car as they are generic concepts. Obviously you need to make it work in conjunction with the rest of the car.

RB copied many subtle aspects of the Merc rear end (including suspension aspects) for the start of last year and it helped to give them the fastest car in 2021.

I remember many fools in 2009 saying the same thing as you when McLaren-Mercedes had a flawed car at the back of the grid. Back then I was saying they should copy what works which was the outwashing Brawn concept. The fools like you said you can't copy, you need to understand data, modelling, reasons for this and that [blah blah blah]... 9 races later Mclaren-Mercedes brought out the Brawn style outwashing concept and had a race winning car from day 1 of the revised B-spec car.

Merc need to take the same approach, look at what works and just do it.
Agreed. Copying always works and has been part of the sport for decades.
Some put too much mystique and complication to F1 cars. Everything can be copied. And copying saves time and resources.
A better part will be better than the part is replacing. Yes it might not be maximized if other parts are modified up stream and downstream, but there will be benefit nonethless. The team will see that something is working and then they can fine tune it to their car.
For argument stake, if ferrari sidepods were a silver bullet and merc copied it they would see an improvement over theirs; if its even 2%. Furrher development of rear wing and beam eing and turning vanes would reap more performance. Long story short copying is a major tool in F1. Mercedes can copy the ice skate, the floor and the separated nose tip over the front wing and im sure the car would improve.
It's really not that simple and I wish people would stop making it so. You might be able to copy some concepts if they work with your current flow structures, but as soon as you make larger, wholesale changes you need to start changing so much more of the car you're basically designing a new car entirely.
Exactly, it all needs to fit into the car philosophy: there is no single good or bad solution, it is all a compromise and depends on everything else. This is why we have Ferrari and Red Bull, with two very different car concepts, very close in overall performance. If Ferrari simply used Red Bull sidepodes or vice versa, they would be in the midfield at best.

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F1Krof
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Stu wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 12:24 pm
holeindalip wrote:
Sun May 08, 2022 3:23 am
Would it be worth it to just throw the budget cap out the window and take the penalty?
Not really an option; the last time a team were disqualified from constructors championship it resulted in Mercedes becoming very, very unhappy with the team in question (and a huge fine); that team have took ten years to recover (and are still not really back to where they were at that point)….

Disqualification would be the only real punishment available to the FIA for a flagrant breach of any of the caps; it could only be interpreted as cheating.
Both RBR and Ferrari are cheating.
One word for each:
Alpha-Tauri
Haas

I guess 3 words total.
Wroom wroom

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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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SuperCNJ wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 2:19 pm
A topic that seems rather trivial but may have significant implications on Merc is the issue with Lewis's jewellery. The FIA has given Lewis two race exemptions but by Monaco (27th May) this exemption expires. Lewis is not backing down. FIA are not backing down and probably can't back down now given the strong stance they have taken. There have been talks of penalty points and possibly race bans if he doesn't comply.

To me, I personally think the FIA are making a mountain out of a molehill and see no real reason to enforce this. But how bad can this get? Could LH really end up being banned from races?
Rules are there for everyone to follow. Personally I think the FIA stance and reasoning on it is perfectly valid. Rules have been written down since before LH even started in F1 so knew about them when he started. They just havent been enforced. Rightfully/wrongfully. Now Mercedes call for the rules to be followed better, but now rules are being enforced, they kick up a fuss. Perfect logic.
No Mikey Noo! No! Nooo Mikey! That was sooo not riiight!!

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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The FIA allows wedding rings, the riskiest of all jewelry! So you see the hypocrisy there.


This little knob that might as well be a wart is what all the furore is about?

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