2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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CMSMJ1
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Come on - let's be talking about the AMG Merc team - not Hamilton, or even Max in this thread...

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proteus
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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How much more updates are they capable to fit inside the budget cap in this season? Since so many floors were changed an with new front/rear wings coming, i would assume they are aproaching the limit, or arent they?
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adrianjordan
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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proteus wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:40 pm
How much more updates are they capable to fit inside the budget cap in this season? Since so many floors were changed an with new front/rear wings coming, i would assume they are aproaching the limit, or arent they?
Weren't several of the floors old ones with make shift modifications, such as cut outs, though?

How much does a new floor cost just to manufacture?
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Rodak
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:57 pm
proteus wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:40 pm
How much more updates are they capable to fit inside the budget cap in this season? Since so many floors were changed an with new front/rear wings coming, i would assume they are aproaching the limit, or arent they?
Weren't several of the floors old ones with make shift modifications, such as cut outs, though?

How much does a new floor cost just to manufacture?
Quite a bit. Design, send to the shop to make patterns for all the pieces, pull molds off them, then manufacture the parts, including jigs for bonding, trimming, etc; sounds easy for a garage fiberglass operation, but it's not a speedy or cheap process for carbon. I'm an ex-aircraft composites tooling guy who was involved in tooling for composite parts, including the B-2 bomber and the C-17; I was offered a job with Swift Engineering back in the day, as their major problem was producing under-bodies for their CART cars and they needed hands on deck. Turned it down because of living in California. The process is neither 'swift' nor simple.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Quantum wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:03 pm
Thought Red Bull fans wanted competitive seasons....
I don't recall that at all. That was Toto Wolff saying that and he has his wish, with strong Ferrari and Red Bull competition for the Mercedes GP team to race against. The chased team has become the chaser, now taking on the Ferrari/Red Bull role of maximum attack and chasing the odd victory with caution to the wind!

We very much welcome the challenge, we enjoy the fight, it’s why we are here. ... They (Ferrari) are a formidable competitor and definitely with new goals for next season there might be another team (Red Bull) joining the party.
https://sport360.com/article/formula-on ... es-in-2019

On the other side, dominance from a single team, whether it is us, whether it is Red Bull in the 2010 years, or whether it was Ferrari in the early 2000s is something that is always a bit odd for the championship. But it is not up to the team that has made steps to be seen as responsible for the predictability of the championship. ... I would wish for nothing more than a strong competition.
http://www.silverarrows.net/news/wolff- ... ampionship.
Last edited by JordanMugen on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:42 am, edited 6 times in total.

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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Quantum wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:03 pm

Wouldn't you be calm if the car you were driving had won 6 races straight, and it was your team mate 2nd place in the table, and you're 2 race victories ahead of your next non RB challenger with less than half the season gone?

Thought Red Bull fans wanted competitive seasons....
yes you want competitive seasons and yes red bull have won 6 on the trot but look at the circumstances. Only Imola could it be said that the Red Bull was really superior and if it wasn't for Ferrari being Ferrari then maybe the championship would be a lot closer.

What we don't want is to see an unnecessary rule change just to bring Mercedes back in to the fight. Allowing Mercedes to have a nice hydraulic suspension system just because they have no idea how to build a normal suspension system is not right especially when Wolff was very upfront about this when Mercedes had significant advantages between 2014-2020 with things like the DAS allowed them to have there significant performance advantages over the rest of the field.

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adrianjordan
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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carisi2k wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:33 am
Quantum wrote: ↑
Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:03 pm

Wouldn't you be calm if the car you were driving had won 6 races straight, and it was your team mate 2nd place in the table, and you're 2 race victories ahead of your next non RB challenger with less than half the season gone?

Thought Red Bull fans wanted competitive seasons....
yes you want competitive seasons and yes red bull have won 6 on the trot but look at the circumstances. Only Imola could it be said that the Red Bull was really superior and if it wasn't for Ferrari being Ferrari then maybe the championship would be a lot closer.

What we don't want is to see an unnecessary rule change just to bring Mercedes back in to the fight. Allowing Mercedes to have a nice hydraulic suspension system just because they have no idea how to build a normal suspension system is not right especially when Wolff was very upfront about this when Mercedes had significant advantages between 2014-2020 with things like the DAS allowed them to have there significant performance advantages over the rest of the field.
But everyone would get them back. It's not like Merc would be the only team with it.

And F1 is supposed to be about pushing the boundaries. Hardly does that when my SUV has more advanced suspension than an F1 car!!

I bet if you asked Newey whether he would prefer basic or hydraulic suspension, he'd snap your hand off.
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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JordanMugen wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:23 am
That was Toto Wolff saying that and he has his wish, with strong Ferrari and Red Bull competition for the Mercedes GP team to race against.
:lol:

Toto wants competition in the way that his team wins and the others are just having their glimpses of performance. With real competition he is quickly in the headphone killer mode.
It is easy to make these statements when your car is nearly a second faster than the rest and you have to turn it down to not be too obvious...
adrianjordan wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:40 am
And F1 is supposed to be about pushing the boundaries. Hardly does that when my SUV has more advanced suspension than an F1 car!!
No and no.
F1 is about getting the optimum under a certain rule set. This rule set includes the thought of avoiding runaway technologies that can not be copied as they unlevel the field to a degree where it gets boring. Any fancy suspension is exactly this.
carisi2k wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:33 am
Allowing Mercedes to have a nice hydraulic suspension system just because they have no idea how to build a normal suspension system is not right .......
Also no.
The issue is not that Merc can not build a normal suspension. We have seen last year that they are very capable with this. The issue is the rake concept. RedBull suffers the least as they use the most rake. Merc suffers the most as they use the least rake, it even looks like their floor edge has sometimes a negative rake...
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Quantum
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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basti313 wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 am

Also no.
The issue is not that Merc can not build a normal suspension. We have seen last year that they are very capable with this. The issue is the rake concept. RedBull suffers the least as they use the most rake. Merc suffers the most as they use the least rake, it even looks like their floor edge has sometimes a negative rake...
I agree. With Hindsight everyone can look like a genius or an idiot, and Mercedes got it wrong. Not dropping the ball kinda wrong, just missed the hoop.
I think this might be the Achilles heel of the budget and resource caps though. In previous year the top teams could turn it around.
This season though, if you have a set back like Mercedes, seems like you're baked in for the rest of the season unfortunately. Changing floor and suspension concepts in season was a tough task without restrictions, now I'd say it's a practical impossibility.

I also don't think it's actually made a difference to helping less well funded teams close the gap at all either, but maybe it will take time.
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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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adrianjordan wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:40 am

But everyone would get them back. It's not like Merc would be the only team with it.

And F1 is supposed to be about pushing the boundaries. Hardly does that when my SUV has more advanced suspension than an F1 car!!

I bet if you asked Newey whether he would prefer basic or hydraulic suspension, he'd snap your hand off.
So Mercedes should get the easy way out of it's problem should it. This ruling is really taking the cars back to what they were suspension wise in the mid 90's post the banning of active suspension. These are supposed to be racing cars and not a luxury SUV and I want to see them moving around a bit like they used to in those days. Sort the men from the children.

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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basti313 wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 am

Also no.
The issue is not that Merc can not build a normal suspension. We have seen last year that they are very capable with this. The issue is the rake concept. RedBull suffers the least as they use the most rake. Merc suffers the most as they use the least rake, it even looks like their floor edge has sometimes a negative rake...
Also Yes this is the issue and no they didn't have a normal suspension last year but a hydraulic unit.

The Red Bull is not running with any significant rake in there car. Photo's of it show no or an extremely small rake unlike the 2021 car which had a significant amount.

Mercs have chosen there solution which doesn't work with the 2022 regulations and want a free get out of jail card in the form of hydraulic or active suspension. It has nothing to do with rake because all of the 2022 cars except maybe the Mclaren are almost flat to the floor when under the highest aerodynamic load.

There cars suffer the most because they start out at a much lower ride height and the suspension they have designed doesn't have the flexibility to handle porpoising or hitting the ground as often as the W13 does. So what you end up with is a car that bounces like crazy everywhere and can destroy a drivers back. The hydraulic suspension would automatically help Mercedes solve this issue and the other teams would be at a disadvantage because they would lose their advantage at having spent money on building a proper suspension system for the new regulations.

basti313
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Quantum wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:40 am
basti313 wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 8:17 am

Also no.
The issue is not that Merc can not build a normal suspension. We have seen last year that they are very capable with this. The issue is the rake concept. RedBull suffers the least as they use the most rake. Merc suffers the most as they use the least rake, it even looks like their floor edge has sometimes a negative rake...
I agree. With Hindsight everyone can look like a genius or an idiot, and Mercedes got it wrong. Not dropping the ball kinda wrong, just missed the hoop.
I think this might be the Achilles heel of the budget and resource caps though. In previous year the top teams could turn it around.
This season though, if you have a set back like Mercedes, seems like you're baked in for the rest of the season unfortunately. Changing floor and suspension concepts in season was a tough task without restrictions, now I'd say it's a practical impossibility.

I also don't think it's actually made a difference to helping less well funded teams close the gap at all either, but maybe it will take time.
Well, the point of "wrong" is the essence. As you say it is not 100% wrong, Merc is clearly leading Formula 1.3 with some glimpses towards F1. Completely different field to the F1.5 with sometimes Alpine or Alfa leading.

If we look at rake and no rake in the past, the difference was sometimes well stronger. Before the rake was helped with the cut floor the flat Merc was superior....before the flat concept Merc also had rake as rake was superior.

So this swings...and no one knows which floor tweaks are coming. Maybe next years rules with some floor changes (maybe the skids the Bull uses get banned) the swing might go the other way. All this bouncing lobby by Merc is going into this.
carisi2k wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:47 am
Also Yes this is the issue and no they didn't have a normal suspension last year but a hydraulic unit.
This is borderline wrong. The third element was a hydraulic spring, but this does not play any role, it is hydraulic to be easy tuneable. There is nothing hydraulically interconnected. The actuation of the rear collapsing was a mechanical drive that simply goes over center. The best explanation was the tailgate opening of a car. It does not play a substantial role if the springs have hydraulic fluid inside or not...the point is where they are mounted....it is a mechanical system.
carisi2k wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:47 am
The Red Bull is not running with any significant rake in there car. Photo's of it show no or an extremely small rake unlike the 2021 car which had a significant amount.
The amount of rake is significant in the point of bottoming less.
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adrianjordan
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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carisi2k wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:23 am
adrianjordan wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 7:40 am

But everyone would get them back. It's not like Merc would be the only team with it.

And F1 is supposed to be about pushing the boundaries. Hardly does that when my SUV has more advanced suspension than an F1 car!!

I bet if you asked Newey whether he would prefer basic or hydraulic suspension, he'd snap your hand off.
So Mercedes should get the easy way out of it's problem should it. This ruling is really taking the cars back to what they were suspension wise in the mid 90's post the banning of active suspension. These are supposed to be racing cars and not a luxury SUV and I want to see them moving around a bit like they used to in those days. Sort the men from the children.
Well, it was the same with "Party" modes and DAS. And for the umpteenth time, it is not just Merc. Drivers up and down the grid have been complaining, teh onboard camera shots are often just a blurry mess and the cars aren't just "moving around" they look absolutely ridiculous.
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Turned down the chance to meet Vettel at Silverstone in 2007. He was a test driver at the time and I didn't think it was worth queuing!! πŸ€¦πŸ»β€β™‚οΈ

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carisi2k
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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basti313 wrote: ↑
Fri Jul 01, 2022 11:04 am
The amount of rake is significant in the point of bottoming less.
The red bull isn't running any rake. There are photo's on the RB thread showing the car is not running any rake. The RB18 is bottoming less because it is running a higher ride height, better suspension and a better underfloor design.

SuperCNJ
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Re: 2022 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

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What comes as a surprise for me is how vocal and seemingly overconfident Mercs have been about their chances of getting back to the front, and possibly winning with these updates at Silverstone. Given the new issues they seem to find with each race and that quite a few of their changes have not really worked, I would have thought they'd be more cautious and humble as they have been over the years. Having said that, I do hope they can get themselves back in the mix with RB and Ferrari soon which would give us a great second half of the season.