2022 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:43 am
diffuser wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:30 pm
SmallSoldier wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 8:08 pm


McLaren situation was unique because of a change of PU manufacturer and used all of their tokens making the change… Alpine wouldn’t have been able to make chassis changes to accommodate the new PU in 2021 (assuming installation required more modifications than what the token system allowed).
Yep, Alpine could have asked for the same thing. Point is, they didn't even try.

To me, there is no difference to McLaren asking to make chassis changes because they were planing to change PU manufactures for 2021 and Alpine planning to release a new PU for 2021 that require chassis changes. You can't penalise Alpine just because they're an engine manufacturer. Fact is, they both planned the change for 2021.
You are missing the point completely… McLaren’s contract to move to Mercedes was signed before Covid hit the 2020 season… When it happens a mandated chassis freeze was set in place, no Team could make changes to their cars.

Since McLaren contractually couldn’t use Renault engines anymore and had to use the Mercedes PU in 2021, the FIA had to find a compromise… McLaren was allowed to make the necessary changes to install a new PU with different architecture, cooling requirements, layout, etc… In order for the rest of the Teams not to fill disadvantaged, they created the Token system to allow for certain improvements by other Teams.

Alpine couldn’t ask for the same reprieve to install a different PU, they had one they could use (their 2020 PU), McLaren didn’t… It wasn’t a matter of Alpine didn’t ask, they simply couldn’t or better said, weren’t allowed.
McLaren weren't allowed either. They made a case and got it approved. Like I said, Alpine didn't try.

Even Rossi said they should have gone with the new PU in 2021. That tells me, he thinks, there was a chance of getting approval.

Also, remember, that PU was supposed to go into the 2021 car, it was on the test bench. There were all those pictures that came out when Alonso visited in late summer 2020 that caught the PU with the split turbo.

SmallSoldier
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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diffuser wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 4:11 am
SmallSoldier wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 12:43 am
diffuser wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 10:30 pm

Yep, Alpine could have asked for the same thing. Point is, they didn't even try.

To me, there is no difference to McLaren asking to make chassis changes because they were planing to change PU manufactures for 2021 and Alpine planning to release a new PU for 2021 that require chassis changes. You can't penalise Alpine just because they're an engine manufacturer. Fact is, they both planned the change for 2021.
You are missing the point completely… McLaren’s contract to move to Mercedes was signed before Covid hit the 2020 season… When it happens a mandated chassis freeze was set in place, no Team could make changes to their cars.

Since McLaren contractually couldn’t use Renault engines anymore and had to use the Mercedes PU in 2021, the FIA had to find a compromise… McLaren was allowed to make the necessary changes to install a new PU with different architecture, cooling requirements, layout, etc… In order for the rest of the Teams not to fill disadvantaged, they created the Token system to allow for certain improvements by other Teams.

Alpine couldn’t ask for the same reprieve to install a different PU, they had one they could use (their 2020 PU), McLaren didn’t… It wasn’t a matter of Alpine didn’t ask, they simply couldn’t or better said, weren’t allowed.
McLaren weren't allowed either. They made a case and got it approved. Like I said, Alpine didn't try.

Even Rossi said they should have gone with the new PU in 2021. That tells me, he thinks, there was a chance of getting approval.

Also, remember, that PU was supposed to go into the 2021 car, it was on the test bench. There were all those pictures that came out when Alonso visited in late summer 2020 that caught the PU with the split turbo.
If Alpine didn’t need to make chassis changes to install their new PU, they probably should have installed it (was it ready though?)… Let’s keep in mind that the current PU was design to run with the new fuel and probably wouldn’t have worked well with the previous fuel.

But you are still comparing different situations… The FIA had to make a compromise for McLaren since they couldn’t run a Renault PU in 2021 and the Mercedes PU wouldn’t have fit into the car without the required changes, those changes had to be proven by McLaren not to be performance related and simply to install it in the car, every change was vetted by FIA before it could be implemented… Not allowing them to do so which have implied that McLaren effectively missed the 2021 season and not run at all.

Their cost cutting measures couldn’t prevent a Team from running… Alpine asking for changes to improve their performance would have been denied automatically since the whole point was to freeze the cars in order to avoid costs.

selvam_e2002
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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FYI Alpine i.e Renault yet to sign 2026 engine to keep there team in F1. I strongly believe, they may sell the F1 team to Proche or Andriti.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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selvam_e2002 wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 1:09 pm
FYI Alpine i.e Renault yet to sign 2026 engine to keep there team in F1. I strongly believe, they may sell the F1 team to Proche or Andriti.
As of the 18th of November, only one team had signed the 2026 PU regs.

Yes, Alpine shares or the whole thing is up for sale but I don't think the two have anything to do with each other. Hard to sell a works F1 team without a license to supply PUs. If they would sell all or parts to Porsche (who hasn't submitted a license yet either, they could use Alpine's). After all Porsche don't have a factory to build PUs yet and Viry has most of the latest equipment, if not the latest. They're also right up against the Swiss boarded, only 200KMs from Germany.

I think the hold up is they don't want to give RBR new PU status.

https://www.gpblog.com/en/amp/161427/fe ... rains.html

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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The good times are coming according to Esteban:
Next year's Alpine has already been tested several times in the simulator. The feeling is good. "It was very encouraging, and incredibly fast I would say. OK, so far it’s only simulations, but it feels good," Ocon said.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/163839/a ... -fast.html

Now you have my attention....

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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 pm
The good times are coming according to Esteban:
Next year's Alpine has already been tested several times in the simulator. The feeling is good. "It was very encouraging, and incredibly fast I would say. OK, so far it’s only simulations, but it feels good," Ocon said.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/163839/a ... -fast.html

Now you have my attention....
Given its a simulation of what they hope to achieve, I’d be rather surprised if it drove bad

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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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the EDGE wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:11 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 pm
The good times are coming according to Esteban:
Next year's Alpine has already been tested several times in the simulator. The feeling is good. "It was very encouraging, and incredibly fast I would say. OK, so far it’s only simulations, but it feels good," Ocon said.
https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/163839/a ... -fast.html

Now you have my attention....
Given its a simulation of what they hope to achieve, I’d be rather surprised if it drove bad
:lol: Well....that goes without saying. However they had good correlation this year, so one would like to think that would continue.

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:16 pm
the EDGE wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:11 pm
AR3-GP wrote:
Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:46 pm
The good times are coming according to Esteban:


https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/163839/a ... -fast.html

Now you have my attention....
Given its a simulation of what they hope to achieve, I’d be rather surprised if it drove bad
:lol: Well....that goes without saying. However they had good correlation this year, so one would like to think that would continue.
He can say what he wants about next years car being faster but until he sees if the other cars are slower, he's saying nothing. More words filling a blank page.

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Blackout
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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All in all it was a positive season. The team achieved its goals of regaining P4 and reducing the gap on P1 especially since the introduction of the 'A522B' in Silverstone. The team has never been this close to p1 in qualy and race pace. IMO no midfield car has been this close in the hybrid era, except the 2020 pink W10. And 2021 is not representative.
That A522B also brought consistance to the results, and solved the tire wear problems.

The engine (un)reliability level is completely acceptable, contrary to what Alonso said : ) 1- it did not prevent the team from achieving its goals, and 2- these problems were predictable and inevitable.
They say it's "the consequence of aggressive and risky performance choices". But that doesn't explain it all, because all engine manufacturers have certainly followed that same approach, but Renault is a little different. Viry had to do a bigger job IMO, with less data and less resources than the others, because it has only one team, so only one car in testing and two in racing, + smaller staff and means, + a PU that certainly evolves more than the other PUs (compared to 2021).
So Viry will need more time than the others iron out the reliability issues, exactly like with the RE19 that raced between 2019 and 2021.
Last edited by Blackout on Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:46 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Blackout
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Speaking of reliability, Viry purchased a "virtual test track" recently according to AMuS.
-
Szafnauer gives another example: "The top teams have test rigs for the brakes. We don't. We rent one from Mercedes for five days. We have an outdated driver-in-loop simulator. Ask the big guys. They have several." Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes have tools in their factories that others can only dream of. For example, they also have what's called a VTT (Virtual Test Track) - a test bench that runs the entire car. "We are miles ahead of the midfield with our tools," say Mercedes engineers. World championship fourth-place Alpine only recently put a VTT into operation. There has been one at the Viry-Châtillon engine plant since October.
McLaren, WRC fifth, does not have a VTT. (Ex-)team boss Andreas Seidl doesn't want to make too much of the disadvantage. "You use it largely before the season to check the car for durability. To check how the power unit works in the car and whether everything is right with the cooling concept." To do this, McLaren rents space at AVL in Graz. The operation there may be highly efficient. But doing everything under one roof is more efficient. And in Formula 1, every little advantage counts.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Blackout wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:38 pm
All in all it was a positive season. The team achieved its goals of regaining P4 and reducing the gap on P1 especially since the introduction of the 'A522B' in Silverstone. The team has never been this close to p1 in qualy and race pace. IMO no midfield car has been this close in the hybrid era, except the 2020 pink W10. And 2021 is not representative.
That A522B also brought consistance to the results, and solved the tire wear problems.

The engine (un)reliability level is completely acceptable, contrary to what Alonso said : ) 1- it did not prevent the team from achieving its goals, and 2- these problems were predictable and inevitable.
They say it's "the consequence of aggressive and risky performance choices". But that doesn't explain it all, because all engine manufacturers have certainly followed that same approach, but Renault is a little different. Viry had to do a bigger job IMO, with less data and less resources than the others, because it has only one team, so only one car in testing and two in racing, + smaller staff and means, + a PU that certainly evolves more than the other PUs (compared to 2021).
So Viry will need more time than the others iron out the reliability issues, exactly like with the RE19 that raced between 2019 and 2021.
I think Alonso was more pissed about getting hit with the lion's share of those problems. In Montreal he was heading for a podium finish. He was staying in Sainz's DRS while pulling away from Hamilton behind him when he started to have clipping issues down the straight. After the final safety car, he didn't have the speed to hold Bottas off down the straight despite being in DRS distance of Ocon. Early on in the race Alonso was getting up to 310 KPH down the main straight with a full tank of fuel and no DRS. While in the closing laps he could only muster 320KPH with DRS. Before the safety car, he was in the high 290 down the straight, he wasn't even using 8th gear anymore.

AR3-GP
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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Blackout wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:42 pm
Speaking of reliability, Viry purchased a "virtual test track" recently according to AMuS.
-
Szafnauer gives another example: "The top teams have test rigs for the brakes. We don't. We rent one from Mercedes for five days. We have an outdated driver-in-loop simulator. Ask the big guys. They have several." Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes have tools in their factories that others can only dream of. For example, they also have what's called a VTT (Virtual Test Track) - a test bench that runs the entire car. "We are miles ahead of the midfield with our tools," say Mercedes engineers. World championship fourth-place Alpine only recently put a VTT into operation. There has been one at the Viry-Châtillon engine plant since October.
McLaren, WRC fifth, does not have a VTT. (Ex-)team boss Andreas Seidl doesn't want to make too much of the disadvantage. "You use it largely before the season to check the car for durability. To check how the power unit works in the car and whether everything is right with the cooling concept." To do this, McLaren rents space at AVL in Graz. The operation there may be highly efficient. But doing everything under one roof is more efficient. And in Formula 1, every little advantage counts.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/
Success is somewhat proportional to investment. Toyota was an outlier.

It's good to see Renault are making an investment. If you want to beat Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull, you have to spend and invest in resources like them. What I would like to see by 2024/2025 is that Renault/Alpine have the same resources and technology that the big 3 have.


On a different note, considering how miles ahead Mercedes are with their tools, the fact that Haas was matching them for the first 3-4 race weekends :?

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diffuser
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:26 pm
Blackout wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:42 pm
Speaking of reliability, Viry purchased a "virtual test track" recently according to AMuS.
-
Szafnauer gives another example: "The top teams have test rigs for the brakes. We don't. We rent one from Mercedes for five days. We have an outdated driver-in-loop simulator. Ask the big guys. They have several." Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes have tools in their factories that others can only dream of. For example, they also have what's called a VTT (Virtual Test Track) - a test bench that runs the entire car. "We are miles ahead of the midfield with our tools," say Mercedes engineers. World championship fourth-place Alpine only recently put a VTT into operation. There has been one at the Viry-Châtillon engine plant since October.
McLaren, WRC fifth, does not have a VTT. (Ex-)team boss Andreas Seidl doesn't want to make too much of the disadvantage. "You use it largely before the season to check the car for durability. To check how the power unit works in the car and whether everything is right with the cooling concept." To do this, McLaren rents space at AVL in Graz. The operation there may be highly efficient. But doing everything under one roof is more efficient. And in Formula 1, every little advantage counts.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/
Success is somewhat proportional to investment. Toyota was an outlier.

It's good to see Renault are making an investment. If you want to beat Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull, you have to spend and invest in resources like them. What I would like to see by 2024/2025 is that Renault/Alpine have the same resources and technology that the big 3 have.


On a different note, considering how miles ahead Mercedes are with their tools, the fact that Haas was matching them for the first 3-4 race weekends :?
Haas use Ferrari Tools in Ferrari buildings. Remember they share the same buildings.

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RedNEO
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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AR3-GP wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:26 pm
Blackout wrote:
Thu Dec 15, 2022 1:42 pm
Speaking of reliability, Viry purchased a "virtual test track" recently according to AMuS.
-
Szafnauer gives another example: "The top teams have test rigs for the brakes. We don't. We rent one from Mercedes for five days. We have an outdated driver-in-loop simulator. Ask the big guys. They have several." Red Bull, Ferrari and Mercedes have tools in their factories that others can only dream of. For example, they also have what's called a VTT (Virtual Test Track) - a test bench that runs the entire car. "We are miles ahead of the midfield with our tools," say Mercedes engineers. World championship fourth-place Alpine only recently put a VTT into operation. There has been one at the Viry-Châtillon engine plant since October.
McLaren, WRC fifth, does not have a VTT. (Ex-)team boss Andreas Seidl doesn't want to make too much of the disadvantage. "You use it largely before the season to check the car for durability. To check how the power unit works in the car and whether everything is right with the cooling concept." To do this, McLaren rents space at AVL in Graz. The operation there may be highly efficient. But doing everything under one roof is more efficient. And in Formula 1, every little advantage counts.
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ittelfeld/
Success is somewhat proportional to investment. Toyota was an outlier.

It's good to see Renault are making an investment. If you want to beat Mercedes/Ferrari/Red Bull, you have to spend and invest in resources like them. What I would like to see by 2024/2025 is that Renault/Alpine have the same resources and technology that the big 3 have.


On a different note, considering how miles ahead Mercedes are with their tools, the fact that Haas was matching them for the first 3-4 race weekends :?
It’s kind of the opposite, they want to offset F1 team assets to gain funding to sell electric cars.. it’s Honda esq.
Alpine is open to capitalise on the financial valuation of its F1 Team assets."

In plain language, this means that the Renault Group are open to investment offers for their wholly owned team, in turn earmarking the proceeds to fund future growth.
https://racingnews365.com/investment-so ... ne-f1-team

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Wouter
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Re: 2022 Alpine F1 Team

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:lol: :lol: :lol: Pierre is again (still?) in Qatar for WC ⚽️ .

The Power of Honda!