Mercedes W13

[Just_a_fan]

"You look at how we developed the car, and I can point to one moment in time last year where we did something where I think we made a mistake," Elliott explained.

"What you’re seeing in terms of performance and the way it swings from race to race as a consequence of that, and that’s a mistake we’ve known about for a while, and something we’ve been correcting and that’s why our performance has gradually got better.

"But it’s not something we can fully correct for a little while yet, and we will do over the winter."

Elliott did elaborate however on how Mercedes' aerodynamicist exploited a loophole in F1's new technical regulations to whip up their zero-sidepod concept.

"With a loophole, you go through the winter and you look at it and think ‘has anybody else spotted it, is someone else going to turn up with it?’," Elliot said.

"While it looks visually very different, as always with these things, it’s about opening up small aerodynamic advantages.

"Without going and running a development on the concept we’ve got, and running a development on a different concept, it’s hard to know what it will be worth at the end.

so why hasn't the zero sidepod concept worked ?

Because they have issues with other things such as mass. For example, if you carry 10kg over a season then you're already struggling before any other improvements.

[101FlyingDutchman]

So where does loophole and spirit/intent of the rule set sit? A bit like when AMR develops a rear wing that’s within the ruleset but could seriously affect the wake pattern experienced by the car behind and therefor is against the “spirit of the rules”. F1 will stay with murky waters and teams will push the envelope both in design and finances. Nature of the beast

[Evo2racer]

So is it correct to assume that MB Amg will continue with this concept next year because they really think it can work?

My assumption is that the main problem are the suspension set up that they got wrong …

So on the w14 they will change the suspension keep the zero concept and loose as much weight as possible?

What is your opinion ?

[Just_a_fan]

So where does loophole and spirit/intent of the rule set sit? A bit like when AMR develops a rear wing that’s within the ruleset but could seriously affect the wake pattern experienced by the car behind and therefor is against the “spirit of the rules”. F1 will stay with murky waters and teams will push the envelope both in design and finances. Nature of the beast

"Spirit of the rules" is the thing that gets mentioned a lot by some commentators/teams when it suits them but it has no real standing. The only way a design can be checked is against the written rules. If it is in compliance with those then it's legal.

This isn't new, F1 teams have been pushing the edges since day one, and some of them are well known e.g. the Brabham BT49C's lowering suspension, whilst others have been forgotten.

[Just_a_fan]

So is it correct to assume that MB Amg will continue with this concept this year because they really think it can work?

My assumption is that the main problem are the suspension set up that they got wrong …

So on the w14 they will change the suspension keep the zero concept and loose as much weight as possible?

What is your opinion ?

I think they'll stay with a similar style of sidepod and sort out the suspension. But they won't be able to make up the power deficit that I think they now have.

[organic]

So where does loophole and spirit/intent of the rule set sit? A bit like when AMR develops a rear wing that’s within the ruleset but could seriously affect the wake pattern experienced by the car behind and therefor is against the “spirit of the rules”. F1 will stay with murky waters and teams will push the envelope both in design and finances. Nature of the beast

"Spirit of the rules" is the thing that gets mentioned a lot by some commentators/teams when it suits them but it has no real standing. The only way a design can be checked is against the written rules. If it is in compliance with those then it's legal.

This isn't new, F1 teams have been pushing the edges since day one, and some of them are well known e.g. the Brabham BT49C's lowering suspension, whilst others have been forgotten.

Yes but often what's against spirit of the rules gets explicitly banned for the next season, so developing down those routes aren't necessarily something you can bank on for the long term. This exactly is happening with the AMR armchair rear wing endplates and the Merc cutout front wing endplates for next season, although neither seem like critical design choices

[Just_a_fan]

So where does loophole and spirit/intent of the rule set sit? A bit like when AMR develops a rear wing that’s within the ruleset but could seriously affect the wake pattern experienced by the car behind and therefor is against the “spirit of the rules”. F1 will stay with murky waters and teams will push the envelope both in design and finances. Nature of the beast

"Spirit of the rules" is the thing that gets mentioned a lot by some commentators/teams when it suits them but it has no real standing. The only way a design can be checked is against the written rules. If it is in compliance with those then it's legal.

This isn't new, F1 teams have been pushing the edges since day one, and some of them are well known e.g. the Brabham BT49C's lowering suspension, whilst others have been forgotten.

Yes but often what's against spirit of the rules gets explicitly banned for the next season, so developing down those routes aren't necessarily something you can bank on for the long term. This exactly is happening with the AMR armchair rear wing endplates and the Merc cutout front wing endplates for next season, although neither seem like critical design choices

Oh, indeed so. "The Spirit of the Rules" could almost be translated as "Next Year's Rules".

[Stu]

So is it correct to assume that MB Amg will continue with this concept this year because they really think it can work?

My assumption is that the main problem are the suspension set up that they got wrong …

So on the w14 they will change the suspension keep the zero concept and loose as much weight as possible?

What is your opinion ?

I think they'll stay with a similar style of sidepod and sort out the suspension. But they won't be able to make up the power deficit that I think they now have.

Any real improvement will require them to sort their simulations out, they seem to either have huge correlation issues or mathematical modelling errors. Seems to be a really strange situation for the pre-eminent team for the majority of the last decade to be in, however, I now wonder whether their lack of pace last year (certainly at the start of the year) could well have been the first signs of their troubles.

[PlatinumZealot]

The important thing is that the main problem is identified and will be fixed for 2023. The car is anywhere from 5kg to 8kg heavier than the RedBull right now so there is already time in there. The weight loss progromme was never on due to budget restrictions so the W13 is not as bad as it looks now. Those 5kg might be a couple of tenths... and once the aero issues are fixed, the W14 should be fighting out of the blocks.

[AR3-GP]

The important thing is that the main problem is identified and will be fixed for 2023. The car is anywhere from 5kg to 8kg heavier than the RedBull right now so there is already time in there. The weight loss progromme was never on due to budget restrictions so the W13 is not as bad as it looks now. Those 5kg might be a couple of tenths... and once the aero issues are fixed, the W14 should be fighting out of the blocks.

The weight issue didn't stop Red Bull from challenging Ferrari. There's no free lunch in this game. If they want to lower the weight, they have to spend money which can no longer be spent to develop the aero. It pays to get it right the first time like Ferrari and Alfa Romeo did.

[Big Tea]

The important thing is that the main problem is identified and will be fixed for 2023. The car is anywhere from 5kg to 8kg heavier than the RedBull right now so there is already time in there. The weight loss progromme was never on due to budget restrictions so the W13 is not as bad as it looks now. Those 5kg might be a couple of tenths... and once the aero issues are fixed, the W14 should be fighting out of the blocks.

I see one of their ongoing problems as tyre temp management. This would suggest they need to put effort into the suspension as much as any aero or they will still struggle

[InsaneX_Badger]

The important thing is that the main problem is identified and will be fixed for 2023. The car is anywhere from 5kg to 8kg heavier than the RedBull right now so there is already time in there. The weight loss progromme was never on due to budget restrictions so the W13 is not as bad as it looks now. Those 5kg might be a couple of tenths... and once the aero issues are fixed, the W14 should be fighting out of the blocks.

I wish I shared your optimism. I think RB will still be by far the strongest overall package due to the commanding lead they have enjoyed this year.

[SuperCNJ]

I think they'll stay with a similar style of sidepod and sort out the suspension. But they won't be able to make up the power deficit that I think they now have.

Is there actually a power deficit? Or could it be other factors at play here? A combination of inefficient, draggy aero and Merc not turning up the engine perhaps?

[organic]

I think they'll stay with a similar style of sidepod and sort out the suspension. But they won't be able to make up the power deficit that I think they now have.

Is there actually a power deficit? Or could it be other factors at play here? A combination of inefficient, draggy aero and Merc not turning up the engine perhaps?

Yes it's most likely not larger than 20hp though. Other issue is that deployment is also worse than Honda/Ferrari not just peak power

[Just_a_fan]

I think they'll stay with a similar style of sidepod and sort out the suspension. But they won't be able to make up the power deficit that I think they now have.

Is there actually a power deficit? Or could it be other factors at play here? A combination of inefficient, draggy aero and Merc not turning up the engine perhaps?

No idea. No one on here has any real idea. Even the supposed CFD proof isn't actually able to confirm anything as it's not the actual car design and thus is inherently not accurate (albeit extremely interesting).

I doubt there's any degree of not turning up the engines. That would be pointless as seen today. If you've got the power, you have to bring it to the track unless doing so is excessively unreliable (in which case you don't really have the power after all).