2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzivtins
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:28 pm
2. Suspesnion changes - allow a standard active suspension (which will be good as this will mean more close racing)
100% agree with this.

Imagine what could be done with a modern day active suspension setup, just a modern version of the Mp4-8 suspension, just like what we have in McLaren road cars (Super Series & Hyper Series)

Getting rid of anti roll bars and having fully independent suspension dynamics with electronic pitch/yaw control would be HUGE for f1.

The best trick of it all IMO is to have a sort of virtual cross linked anti-roll system where you can have anti roll between the front left wheel and rear right... or any combination.

Sorry, im gushing, i love this tech and its the feature i love most in my 650s

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Big Tea
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 pm
Im looking forward to how the FIA will come to a level that will become the benchmark. This will become enforceable in FP3 when the teams know the limit.

The question is, how they get to such mark... Do they just average out all of the data they have collected and set it at that. Will it become track dependant due the variation of bump etc in the surface.

I believe the FIA will have all the data from each race weekend so far and can converge with teams regarding a 'safer' level.

I am looking forward to FP3 and qualifying where those teams that might have 'more' porposing are caught out by the higher limits and have to make bigger setup changes going into quali for losing time in FP3 due to car changes. Could definitely spice things up a bit if teams are caught out.


However, im pleased that the FIA hasnt given in to some teams claims for things like active suspension etc at this stage in the season. Not only would it be near enough impossible due to budgeting etc, the decision keeps it a level playing field at the minute as the rules/regulations havent been changed, its just a case of you have to adjust ride height if your not doing well in terms of bouncing.
I was wondering how it would be taken if the car was in limits for FP£ but out in qualli or the race.
I know there is supposed to be no no alteration after this, but tyres and tyre pressures can be altered (can they not? ) which may be enough to move to the other side of the limit. There will also be variables such as wind and fuel load etc it could become complicated.
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chrisc90
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:31 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:05 pm
Im looking forward to how the FIA will come to a level that will become the benchmark. This will become enforceable in FP3 when the teams know the limit.

The question is, how they get to such mark... Do they just average out all of the data they have collected and set it at that. Will it become track dependant due the variation of bump etc in the surface.

I believe the FIA will have all the data from each race weekend so far and can converge with teams regarding a 'safer' level.

I am looking forward to FP3 and qualifying where those teams that might have 'more' porposing are caught out by the higher limits and have to make bigger setup changes going into quali for losing time in FP3 due to car changes. Could definitely spice things up a bit if teams are caught out.


However, im pleased that the FIA hasnt given in to some teams claims for things like active suspension etc at this stage in the season. Not only would it be near enough impossible due to budgeting etc, the decision keeps it a level playing field at the minute as the rules/regulations havent been changed, its just a case of you have to adjust ride height if your not doing well in terms of bouncing.
I was wondering how it would be taken if the car was in limits for FP£ but out in qualli or the race.
I know there is supposed to be no no alteration after this, but tyres and tyre pressures can be altered (can they not? ) which may be enough to move to the other side of the limit. There will also be variables such as wind and fuel load etc it could become complicated.
Definitely a complicated one. One extreme of barely any fuel in quali and a full tank in race trim. Wet weather vs dry weather race could have an effect?

If this happens in the race, it could force teams to drive slower, or risk a black flag/DSQ
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A.J.O
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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I posted this in another thread but maybe better suited to this one.
why not look into allowing active aero early?
I would think that allowing the rear spoiler and or beam wing to be used as trim tabs in lieu of DRS could be a pretty cool thing. IMO Much better then active suspension.
Aircraft/boats use theses devices to help hold the desired AOA of the aircraft or vessel

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Stu
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:28 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:24 pm
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pm

If people think this is backfiring for Merc, then they are mistaken... this is exactly what they wanted. They know this year is done, but this has forced the fia to change the rules for 2023. Hence I guess they have achieved what they set out to do.
I think that depends if they come up with a solution though. I mean they might introduce these limits, see that they can be adhered to whilst still maintaining good racing and decide that they stick around for 2023.
From memory, the FIA article says they will work with teams for ideas going forward, so imagine there will be some teams wanting X, some teams wanting Y and some teams wanting neither.
The solutions suggested/rumored are these

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... /10323186/
"And the FIA has indeed suggested that efforts will now be made with the teams to help find ways to eradicate it.

The governing body wants a meeting with the teams to ‘define measures that will reduce the propensity of cars to exhibit such phenomena in the medium term.’

The idea is for F1 to move beyond the need for a maximum limit of bouncing and instead offering tweaks to the F1 rules to help banish the risk of porpoising for the new generation of cars completely.

This could be delivered through more freedom of suspension technology, even a return to F1 of active suspension, or perhaps even making mass dampers legal again.

It is the lack of such suspension tools amid the current 2022 rules that has been a factor in Mercedes struggling to tame the W13 – so any assistance on this front longer term would certainly be welcome to the German car manufacturer as it bids to get back to the front of the grid.
"
The cheapest and easier way to solve the proposing for 2023
1. Suspension changes - allow the various advanced things they were already running in 2021 ( no particular change is racing, but cheapest as everyone had very advanced suspension - can also buy from other teams)
2. Suspesnion changes - allow a standard active suspension (which will be good as this will mean more close racing)
3. Floor changes like reduce the effect of venturi by making it smaller (poor close racing)
4. Allow mass dampers - cheapest and easier to use ( no particular change is racing)

So these are the possible changes for 2023... you don't need unanimous approval from all teams for a rule change for next year.
I would interpret medium-term as 2024/25 on (when the tyre blankets are due to be banned). 2023 cars will already be a long way into the design stage by now (some items will already be signed off for manufacture at this point).
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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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They need to give the teams inerters back, even Indycar uses them! They aren’t expensive Tech anymore.

PS they aren’t a magic bullet, but they will make it much better.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

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JordanMugen
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Big Tea wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:31 pm
I was wondering how it would be taken if the car was in limits for FP£ but out in qualli or the race.
It's straightforward. If you go over the vertical acceleration limits you get disqualifed, perhaps with a black flag shown during the session. Therefore you must err on the side of caution and allow plenty of margin!

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henry
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:06 am
They need to give the teams inerters back, even Indycar uses them! They aren’t expensive Tech anymore.

PS they aren’t a magic bullet, but they will make it much better.
Absolutely. A pair of inerters in the heave locations could easily treble the mass of the cars apparent to the forcing components of thesuspension (tyres and springs) and reduce the mass inertias that the conventional dampers try to control.
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johnny comelately
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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I'm not so sure it is the optimal solution, either scientifically or philosophically.
Let's imagine the counteracter went ahead: so now we have the epitomy of motor racing that have come to another pinnacle of performance while using the latest aerodynamic designs....but they had to stick a band-aid on them for it to work...nuh, doesn't fit the profile.
Solve the cause.

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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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djos wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:06 am
They need to give the teams inerters back, even Indycar uses them! They aren’t expensive Tech anymore.

PS they aren’t a magic bullet, but they will make it much better.
I was watching the Detroit race the other day and it was clear that these Indycars, also running ground effect aero, have very little in the way of porpising or bouncing and really have a very supple suspension setup too. It makes sense that they use inerters to control some of this unwanted boucing.

F2 is also using a tunnel bases aero - I don't recall ever seeing them boincing about, even when the current formula was implemented some years ago.

Leads me to think that the solutions are there but would make the F1 cars slower...and so the teams have to chase the performance. Allowing inerters is not a bad call. They are fitted to motorcycles even...it is a sensible solution and one that <grits teeth> would allow for some road relevance too :shock:
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djos
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Damper development is one of the few areas that are unrestricted in IndyCar.

Penske, in-particular, has been at the forefront of damper development in the USA, and that includes inerters.
The impossible often has a kind of integrity which the merely improbable lacks.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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johnny comelately wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 8:52 am
I'm not so sure it is the optimal solution, either scientifically or philosophically.
Let's imagine the counteracter went ahead: so now we have the epitomy of motor racing that have come to another pinnacle of performance while using the latest aerodynamic designs....but they had to stick a band-aid on them for it to work...nuh, doesn't fit the profile.
Solve the cause.
The cause (one of them) is the banned suspension tech.

mzso
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:28 pm
The cheapest and easier way to solve the proposing for 2023
1. Suspension changes - allow the various advanced things they were already running in 2021 ( no particular change is racing, but cheapest as everyone had very advanced suspension - can also buy from other teams)
2. Suspesnion changes - allow a standard active suspension (which will be good as this will mean more close racing)
3. Floor changes like reduce the effect of venturi by making it smaller (poor close racing)
4. Allow mass dampers - cheapest and easier to use ( no particular change is racing)

So these are the possible changes for 2023... you don't need unanimous approval from all teams for a rule change for next year.
If the current idea is enforceable then there's probably no particular reason to do anything else.
Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:59 am
2023 cars will already be a long way into the design stage by now (some items will already be signed off for manufacture at this point).
Is there still a point in thinking of x year's car and developing two in parallel with the cost cap and no regulation change for a while? Wouldn't it make more sense to just redesign the car on the fly and deploy when ready?

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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Stu wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 6:59 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:28 pm
chrisc90 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:24 pm


I think that depends if they come up with a solution though. I mean they might introduce these limits, see that they can be adhered to whilst still maintaining good racing and decide that they stick around for 2023.
From memory, the FIA article says they will work with teams for ideas going forward, so imagine there will be some teams wanting X, some teams wanting Y and some teams wanting neither.
The solutions suggested/rumored are these

siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:20 pm
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/why- ... /10323186/
"And the FIA has indeed suggested that efforts will now be made with the teams to help find ways to eradicate it.

The governing body wants a meeting with the teams to ‘define measures that will reduce the propensity of cars to exhibit such phenomena in the medium term.’

The idea is for F1 to move beyond the need for a maximum limit of bouncing and instead offering tweaks to the F1 rules to help banish the risk of porpoising for the new generation of cars completely.

This could be delivered through more freedom of suspension technology, even a return to F1 of active suspension, or perhaps even making mass dampers legal again.

It is the lack of such suspension tools amid the current 2022 rules that has been a factor in Mercedes struggling to tame the W13 – so any assistance on this front longer term would certainly be welcome to the German car manufacturer as it bids to get back to the front of the grid.
"
The cheapest and easier way to solve the proposing for 2023
1. Suspension changes - allow the various advanced things they were already running in 2021 ( no particular change is racing, but cheapest as everyone had very advanced suspension - can also buy from other teams)
2. Suspesnion changes - allow a standard active suspension (which will be good as this will mean more close racing)
3. Floor changes like reduce the effect of venturi by making it smaller (poor close racing)
4. Allow mass dampers - cheapest and easier to use ( no particular change is racing)

So these are the possible changes for 2023... you don't need unanimous approval from all teams for a rule change for next year.
I would interpret medium-term as 2024/25 on (when the tyre blankets are due to be banned). 2023 cars will already be a long way into the design stage by now (some items will already be signed off for manufacture at this point).
Allowing interfers and dampers to existing suspension is very simple and cheap...they can even easily do it in the current cars, so it shouldnt be an issue for 2023...maybe full blown active suspensions can come in 2024

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siskue2005
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Re: 2022 cars 'porpoising' at high speed

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mzso wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 10:28 am
siskue2005 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:28 pm
The cheapest and easier way to solve the proposing for 2023
1. Suspension changes - allow the various advanced things they were already running in 2021 ( no particular change is racing, but cheapest as everyone had very advanced suspension - can also buy from other teams)
2. Suspesnion changes - allow a standard active suspension (which will be good as this will mean more close racing)
3. Floor changes like reduce the effect of venturi by making it smaller (poor close racing)
4. Allow mass dampers - cheapest and easier to use ( no particular change is racing)

So these are the possible changes for 2023... you don't need unanimous approval from all teams for a rule change for next year.
If the current idea is enforceable then there's probably no particular reason to do anything else.
The band aid fix won't be a permanent solution..